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Intelligent Design vs. The Flying Spaghetti Monster

Cybin Monde
Resident Moderator (?)
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,468
07-10-2005 15:29
i'm not saying we should consider "religion" as a possible theory to our beginnings, but that Intelligent Design is not easily dismissable.

while there are proofs of evolutionary processes, there is not definitive proof that we evolved from amoeba. yes, there exists proof that we have "evolved" from more primal versions of our current Homo Sapienic selves, but there is yet to be solid proof linking us to apes and "less".

i also don't want you to hear me saying that evolution is wrong. i am being scientific.. i'm being quite scientific. i will not settle on saying one thing or another is exclusively correct unless it can be proven without any scientific doubt.

both sides of this arguement construe what they want from the evidence they can show. biblical scholars will point out artifacts of specific items mentioned in the Bible (yes, they escape me at the moment), but evolutionary supporters will point at lower primal forms of ourselves and jump to conclusions placing us as descendents from apes.

neither side is conclusive and as such, either side has a valid right to present their arguement as theory, but neither side has the right to present it as cold, hard fact.

when you can show me conclusive proof that i can view and/or hold in my hands, i will not agree with ANY theory.

i do have one question though, if evolution were true, then why don't we have current incarnations of of "missing links" between any two species? and i don't mean one species of dolphin, as an example, begetting another species of dolphin. i'm talking about fish with legs (granting that there is the mudskipper), or flying reptiles, etc..

and i don't believe, in my opinion, that climate has anything to do with it. if one species exists that supposedly became another species entirely that also exists, then there is climate for there to be current version of "missing links". there should be a wild menagerie of odd critters flitting about.. according to the algorithms of evolution itself.

i'm not being stubborn, i'm thinking in black-and-white. no conclusive proof = no conclusive fact.

i expect that if ever i am bestowed with that knowledge that we'll all be wrong, possibly a congolmeration of theories is what the true facts are.. perhaps it's something none of us have even dreamt of.

just the nature of our universe and it's beginnings tells me that we have no idea what the real truth of these matters are. they might be able to say, "this" is how stars are made, but they have no proof of where everything in the universe started from.. even the Big Bang theory needs a beginning, one it doesn't provide.

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ok.. this has gotten much longer than i anticipated and i think it's time i go relax my brain cells.. so, there you go.

one last thing, i have to mention i'm proud of this community to be able to have such an intelligent discussion without saying "you're wrong, i'm right".. instead we illustrate our points with lucid thoughts and decent debate. good on ya', SLers.. good on ya. :)
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Siro Mfume
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Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 747
07-10-2005 16:43
Evaluating facts and developing theories based upon them is science. Evaluating facts, denouncing them and saying god did it instead is religion. Take that how you want, but Zeus is not the cause of lightning, neither is Thor the cause of thunder and I hope you can figure out the analogy from there.
Cybin Monde
Resident Moderator (?)
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,468
hmm..
07-10-2005 17:06
you do realize you're simply agreeing with me, right?
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"We, as developers, are doing the easy part – building the scaffolding for a new world. You, as the engines of creation, must breathe life into it."
- Philip Linden

"There is no life I know to compare with pure imagination. Living there, you'll be free if you truly wish to be."
- Willy Wonka (circa 1971)

SecondSpace (http://groups.myspace.com/secondspace) : MySpace group for SLers.
Cybin Monde
Resident Moderator (?)
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,468
hmm..
07-10-2005 17:12
you do realize you're simply agreeing with me, right?

but keep in mind.. evaluating facts, and jumping to evolutionary conclusions isn't scientific either.

true science would have no conclusive decision on this subject.

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also, found this interesting. i'm providing this not to prove any points, but to further illustrate the complexities of our nature and the hardships of concluding "where we came from".
_____________________
"We, as developers, are doing the easy part – building the scaffolding for a new world. You, as the engines of creation, must breathe life into it."
- Philip Linden

"There is no life I know to compare with pure imagination. Living there, you'll be free if you truly wish to be."
- Willy Wonka (circa 1971)

SecondSpace (http://groups.myspace.com/secondspace) : MySpace group for SLers.
Kathmandu Gilman
Fearful Symmetry Baby!
Join date: 21 May 2004
Posts: 1,418
07-11-2005 02:55
From: Cybin Monde
you do realize you're simply agreeing with me, right?

but keep in mind.. evaluating facts, and jumping to evolutionary conclusions isn't scientific either.

true science would have no conclusive decision on this subject.

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also, found this interesting. i'm providing this not to prove any points, but to further illustrate the complexities of our nature and the hardships of concluding "where we came from".



That article has at least a few conciets that are supportive of his point but he ignores or gets wrong a few concepts. One is the "decended from apes" retoric that has been rejected long ago. Modern apes and man had a common ancestor but man is not decended from apes ( at least not in over 10 million years), related but not directly decended. There are no intimediaries because, well there are none...

In the last 20 years, vestigial organs are becomeing less and less vestigial as our knowledge grows about how organisms work. Tonsils and the appendix have been considered useless until AIDS prompted research into the immune system found they both play a role in our immune system. The example of the pubic and underarm hair is ludicris as any first year medical student can tell you it is for scent and phermone dispersion. Human B.O. is rather pungient and serves the purpos of repelling preditors. Pubic hair also helps in the dispersion of phermones. Just because people shave it off doesn't mean it has no function. Trying to say that because humans lost their tails yet kept other useless organs like pubic hair refutes evolution is bordering on the idiotic.

";(iv) The initial germ units and cells and thence the initial zygote (fertilized ovum) for the multi-cellular primitive generations of all species, including the highest vertebrates like man, were created without the uterus. The perennial debate: "Who came first, the egg or the hen?" thus ends in favour of the egg." This has a whole lotta WTF? going for it... it evidence for what exactly? He confuses an unfertilized, pre zygote egg with a chicken egg? A chicken egg that is, in fact an external uterus by all accounts. You could also support Dawinian evolution by saying that the egg came first because that animal that laid it was not quite a chicken. This guy lost whatever credibility with me he might of had with this one.

I could go on and on, all I can say is that these might have been good topics of discussion back in 1985 but 20 years later after mapping the human genome, AIDs and cancer resurch, DNA testing and recent archialigical finds take a lot of wind out of these arguments ( that which isn't typical anti-evolutionary flim flam like the egg and hen) plus everyone knows Dawin got a lot of things wrong, it is the nature of science to correct and rewrite as it learns more.
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Jeffrey Gomez
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Join date: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,522
07-11-2005 09:32
From: Cybin Monde
just like evolution has been shown to be true.. to a degree. we know that some animals have adapted to their surroundings, but that's within a species, not one becoming another...

Ahh... hang on there. I've actually read several reports of "missing links" being found between birds and dinosaurs, to cite a very easy example. I hate to be a perfectionist, but this quoted statement is just flat-out wrong. Hence why I'm posting in the first place.

Examples:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4512487.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3762626.stm



There are also some very interesting inter-species examples that have been produced that further this scientific theory. Some examples:

Ligers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger
Wolphins: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolphin

And unlike mules, some of these cross-breeds are also able to reproduce.

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However, I will agree that many of these theories are compatable with one another. The problem is we're working within a scenario where students simply "don't bother" looking these things up, which is equally sad in its own way.

If it were me, I would focus on a Google project with some of these related terms and go from there.
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Kanker Greenacre
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Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 178
07-11-2005 15:06
There's a problem with actually discovering missing links. For every missing link you find, you end up creating two more missing links -- between your new intermediate and the two previous ends! ;)

From: Jeffrey Gomez
Ahh... hang on there. I've actually read several reports of "missing links" being found between birds and dinosaurs, to cite a very easy example. I hate to be a perfectionist, but this quoted statement is just flat-out wrong. Hence why I'm posting in the first place.
...
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Jeffrey Gomez
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Join date: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,522
07-11-2005 19:30
Of course! That's half the fun of paleontology.

The bottom line being there's conclusive evidence that links exist between species in the first place.
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Kanker Greenacre
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Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 178
07-11-2005 20:17
I guess I didn't put in enough "winkies" ;) :) :p
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