its really sad :(

Behave better???
pfft! what fun is that!

This debate has been going on a while now and I think it's a healthy one. In other games, the welcome area is restricted. I do think that it makes sense to restrict the area to newcomers, greeters, mentors, live help, and staff. I have been able lately to get to know some of the WA regulars better, and some of them are very funny people. Some of them also enjoy "pranking" newbies. This goes on a lot in SL and I do agree generally speaking that a person can just file a complaint although I don't agree with the practice at all. Only, the brand new newbies typically in the WA would usually have to have someone tell them how to do it. They aren't going to know how, which is why they need someone helping them. Friendly does not necessarily equal saccharine, it just means...welcoming

Anyone who wanted to hang in the WA can apply to one of those groups. I don't have a problem with sarcasm, with practical jokes, or with profanity on a personal level. However, anyone running a business will tell you retention of your existing customer base and recruiting new customers are key issues. I do not see the WA in its current state as an effective way to recruit new cutomers and retain them. Efforts to resolve the issue other ways don't appear to have lasted long. I'd like to see SL thrive, and we need new creative minds. Simple as that. If you want to be in the WA, I think you should be committed in some way to helping newbies. Asking SL to commit personnel there all the time is like asking for a perpetual hall monitor to micromanage activity. It's not cost effective, it would be pointless when there is low activity there as well. I also believe as a precedent that's a slippery slope and there are other solutions.

Mention SL in Active Worlds and you'll be kicked out for "Offensive Language" - at least this is what happened to me when I visited there with a group of people for the sole purpose of learning about and comparing "online worlds." The result was that I was never able to give Active Worlds a chance because I was banned almost immediately. I appreciate the freedom given in SL to discuss openly what might be good or bad about the product.

More positive energy in the WA will balance out the negativity. LL seems to be addressing this with the Greeter program, but anyone with something positive to offer will help too.

SL has so much to offer. In the few months that I've been here there have been problems with logging in, tp, etc... but I can see past all that and trust that SL will continue to improve.

The day that LL restricts access to the WA is the day tha SL as a "great idea for creating community" comes to an end.

That is the day that the "FIC" really will begin to exist - no possbility for dispute here. It WILL effectively officially designate one group of "customers/players/residents" as something special and allowed privileges that others are not allowed.

If you do not believe that, consider the Teen Grid. With the exception of certain teens who manage to play on both grids, only Lindens and underage residents (teens) are allowed on the teen grid even though it is still in beta. Just as soon as a single adult other than a Linden ventures onto that grid, it is no longer a teen grid - the very nature of the grid will change.

In the case of the WA, the WA is inherently different fro Orientation Island. The WA is part of the main grid, Orientation Island is not. I don't think that anyone is allowed to revisit Orientation Island except the Lindens - and guess what... no problems there.

My point, as soon as a noob steps foot onto the main grid, he/she must deal with it, warts and all because the WA is part of the grid (so are most islands for that matter.). Unfortunately, most societies/communities have had and will continue to have so-called "Bad apples" who a majority of people dislike or dispise for their actions. So be it.

So long as the miscreants are technically within the TOS, there is not much that can be done as it is - on an offical basis. OTOH, on an unofficial basis, those who want to counter the "bad apple stench" or influence must act within the TOS themselves pointing out the exceptionality of te "bad apples".

Personally, I find noobs are quite willing to be led away from a WA where disputes are occuring in order to be shown SL's more positive aspects.

I am not a greeter, a mentor nor an instructor and don't want to be. OTOH, if and when I see a noob who is under 2 days old, I offer assistance if appropriate, to answer questions if and when they might be asked, and a "softer side" of SL if I have the time at that time.

LL should leave the WA alone in terms of rights to visit or hang out there as I see it right now... but the Liasons should have a more consistent presence there, I think.

The way some of the 'WA kings and queens' act is in no way conducive or contributory towards any sort of community. They go after anyone who isn't them, or who isn't like them. If anything, *they* are a clique, who do their best to make access to the WA as difficult as can be. It's not the "FIC" we have to worry about at the WA, it's a collective of assholes who have taken up semi-permanent residency there.



The "warts" are unusually concentrated and exagerated at the WA.




No, not 'so be it'. There's no reason at all why it should just 'be'. If people are at the WA to cause trouble for newcomers, there's no reason why it has to simply be accepted.



Not true. Most of what they do would be covered under the CS, which would defer to Linden discretion.



They shouldn't have to be 'led away'. You yourself said that you wouldn't want to be a mentor or greeter. But you expect others to be there to lead people away?



Right. But it isn't like the specific and persistent troublemakers are hard to find, by any stretch. There's no need for a categorical ban, and approaching each individual situation would not be formidable. It's a handful of people, who may not be breaking TOS, but are definitely running afoul of CS.

I dont think the welcome area should be restricted to certain people. The variety and unexpected behaviors of people can be the most alluring draw to SL for a new person. You can be silly and outrageous without being abusive and detrimental.

But, I do think that stricter standards for behavior should be enforced in the welcome area. If a person chooses to breech the standards and gets supended and banned, it should be from all of SL, not just the welcome area.

I would hate to see everyone punished for the actions of a few. Simply limiting access to the welcome area to only greeters or mentors, (or whoever) is a cop out. The welcome area should be open to everyone, as long as they follow the rules. Break the rules and suffer the consquences. Simple.

Dont restrict the welcome area to all, only to those that break the rules enough to earn a suspension and/or ban across the board.

I'm not saying I disagree with you Loki, just that I have yet to see anyone produce a workable alternate solution. Ideally, it should be open to everyone. Problem is, that hasn't been working.

A recent comment directed at a newbie that I saw was to the effect of hey, it's a newbie, watch them ask for money! I asked the person to stop newbie griefing, they did. They then hassled me some, actually we ended up getting along ok surprisingly enough.

Is that a ToS violation? Nope. Is it not helping matters and being jerky to newbies? Yep.

Ideas other than restricting the area or Flip's proposal about number of neg rates versus number of positives? I am confused by how a stricter standard could be outlined?

Well, Michi, you somehow managed to take most of what I said and really warp it. You have either deliberately or accidentally misconstrued things I said and offered your interpretation as "Factual". So, I will condense my post for you.

This is my opinion of the suggestions for change concerning the WA.
Leave the WA alone. One person's "warts" are another's friends. Liasons should have a more consistent presence in the WA. Enforce the TOS as currently written. Not doing so will "create the FIC" whether it exists now or not. I happen to lead people away from the WA in order to have chat with them uniterrupted by endless and inconvenient scrolling that can interfere with the conversation beween the noob and I - I do the same when no "grieferkin" are in the WA also. The reasons I hold these opinions are not up for public discussion, interpretation nor evaluation.

Simple enough?

Btw, calling people a "collection of a##holes" is likely to draw negative attention given the current atmosphere on the forums.

Chuh, well, they *are* assholes.

... Oh, you meant Jeska.









...


Never mind.

Exactly how? And what is the desirable, coveted privelege involved in going back to the WA, anyway?


I'm afraid I don't understand your analogy. The Teen Grid is going to be segregated so as to exclude the adult content we have in the rest of the grid (good for business, good for underage kids). If the WA were also segregated, it would be to exclude the griefers from interfering with that confusing first few hours in a newbies' SL life. That, too, is good business.


Check the police blotter. You're right about the difference, but the WA is always featured frequently for bans and suspensions.


The intent of those of us in favor of restrictions isn't to give a deceptive view of SL to new people -- as you said, they'll see the reality soon enough. Rather, our intent is to give them a fighting chance to actually have a pleasant association with SL before they're dumped into the massive, unzoned, laggy adult-oriented chaos of the rest of the world.


As have I. It's funny how easy they are to spot -- standing by the telehub in standard-issue jeans and shirt, their head moving around as they fiddle with their mouse looking for menu options. I know because that's what I must have looked like "Hi, xxxxx, need some help?" is all it takes to get most of them to start bombarding me with questions. I'm more than willing to be late for events or meeting with my friends to help these people. In some cases I've even taken them along with me to show them what is going on. A lot of these folks are now on my friends list. How great is that?

You're right. The people who treat newbies like crap do indeed tend to stick together. Just because some people *like* other folks who bully and harangue easy targets, doesn't somehow justify their behavior.

There are a lot of jerks who have friends who are also jerks. You know yourself whether or not you treat new users like crap or not. That's not something I have to expound on to make a point to you. If you or your friends aren't part of the problem, then it isn't you or your friends that I'm talking about.

If you are, then, well, maybe you should look at finding a way to have fun that isn't at other peoples' expense, rather than fighting for your god-given-right to screw with confused people who have only been in-world for a matter of minutes.

In other words, if you aren't picking on newbies, then I've got no beef. If you are, then maybe you should pick on someone 'your own size'. Capitalizing on a new user's confusion and lack of initiation just because you think its hi-fucking-larious isn't "different strokes for different folks", it is, as I said, being an asshole.

Very well said. I very much suspect the reason they do pick on newbies is because they know any more experienced resident would explain to them in easy to understand words, right where to stick it. I wouldn't be suprised if a few newbies have also put them in their place...

I generally don't waste words with those types. I do, however, know where the "report abuse" option is and I know how to copy chat logs to a notecard. A brand-new newbie may not know that and the griefers realize it.

The biggest challenge Linden Lab faces today is not technological.

The leadership and governance of people has always been among the most challenging of all human undertakings. More ponderous than managing the capacities of asset servers, more sensitive than balancing user loads, creating a society worth joining has never been a simple matter.

Right now, certain people are not behaving in a way that benefits their neighbors. By stifling the ability of new residents to effectively learn about their surroundings, a small cadre of abusive people threatens the longterm prosperity of our little digital world.

Because the rules of decency and interaction in Second Life were not drafted with such social abortions in mind, these individuals go largely unpunished, mostly unharmed. Lacking the moral basis for decent behavior, such people have caused their numbers to be bolstered by the environment they created -- an environment worthy of a pre-school playground, not of an adult world. An environment where those whose minds never truly exited the school yard could join their fellows in petulant rebellion against the need to attain maturity.

Will Linden Lab combat this? Of course -- given enough time passed and enough damage done. Will their efforts be successful? Perhaps, given enough commitment to ending the embarassment their benevolence has allowed to flourish.

Indignation is a fair emotion to feel right now. Yet, surprise is a luxury I no longer grant myself in environments where the veil of anonymity permits the most egregious of psychological displays.

Yeah, I tend to agree that the first impressions made in the Welcome Area are important. In no small way, my experience and my social nexus on SL were established in the welcome area over the course of the first hours on SL. I learned enough to get a feel for the potential of SecondLife, met a lot of interesting people, and got oriented enough to start learning on my own. I'm not sure my experience on SecondLife would have been a lasting one had a few of the people I met early on not been around.

I believe that if you are concerned about the welcome area, the best thing you can do is put your money where you mouth is, and spend a little time there, make the experience social and interesting (both for you and the new users). A critical mass of good people should be all it takes to wither the thrall of the internet_arses.

Well said Enabran. But, while I normally try to avoid parallels to RL this is one of those that begs for such a comparison.

If someone is stalking me and verbally abusing me in RL, my options are limited: Avoid them (not always possible), retaliate (which can cause legal problems for myself), call the cops (who won't do anything until/unless there has been a demonstrable violation of the law). Often, the authorities' hands are tied because there is no proof that the accused actually did anything.

Being an online moderator is much like that -- more so in-world than here on the boards where the evidence is in pixels for all to see. In-world, about all we can do is keep turning in ARs, show newbies how to do it, and hope that someone eventually takes the trash out to the curb where it belongs.

I won't Lie I simply skimmed through this after the intial posting. However, I did pick up some key things people are eluding to but are not outright saying.

#1 We have dissatisfied members of SL who because they have the mentality of a 9yr old decide to attempt to hit LL where it hurts the Pocketbook.

In response we have no retort from LL as to what they are doing to appease the moral of the populace hence we get incidents mentioned above.

Personally I think LL should make a Comment about this.

#2 Make no mistake Linden Lab is a business first and foremost.

I do find it desturbing though that they are not more in tune with the populace when it comes to attrition.

Many have argued that Newbs are what Make SL. This folks is very very true. Not simply on the guise of making money off of them. But think about it our next greatist designer could be a, dare I say it, NEWB.

Those old timers that have such Callous anexities towards new members should be thankful of them instead of trite and dismissive.

I don't have a solution for this problem I only have a personal opinion.

It saddend me to hear of this incident and I dont post much anymore as the forum drama has about played its toll on me.

I'm in the opinion that maybe the welcome areas should be a little more strengent and negative commentary be dealt with as harshly as griefer at an event as in essence this is griefing in the lowest form.

I simply say give a new person a chance to get away from the welcome area and find things out on thier own. Then if they get told in world it sucks by then they can ask the age old question of well if it sucks so much what the hell are you still doing here.

But again that is simply my take on things and lately being an Ancient with more ass than these forums have teeth I guess I should have stayed quiet.

Sincerely, Shadow Weaver

I mentioned our core values recently, in another thread. Among them are tolerance and free expression.

We are constantly walking the line between encouraging tolerance and freedom of expression, and responding to people using those values as a way to justify bad behavior. It happens here in the forums, in the world, and at the Welcome area. There are no easy answers, but here are a few things we're contemplating.

1. As we add more in-world staff, we can make sure there are Liaisons staffing the WA at least during peak periods.

2. Greeters, mentors and other interested residents such as Awakening Avatars, can go a long way to counter-balancing the negative element. We welcome any help from interested residents in either the Linden sponsored groups or the resident groups.

3. We're creating a way for residents to build their own welcome experience, starting with enabling them to bring newbies right to their parcel for orientation and welcome. If that takes off there will be too many spawn points (excuse the game term) and too many interesting things happening for the nay-sayers to overly and negatively influence the first experience a newcomer has.

Beyond that we can all continue to try to communicate the core values of Second Life, and let people know that freedom of expression isn't a license to behave badly, but a challenge to create something beautiful and lasting.

Devils Advocate :

Any newbie that would quit on the say-so of the first person they meet does not belong in SecondLife.

Without brave creative people who think for *themselves*, SL is nothing.

Thanks, Robin, for responding to this thread. I really would spend more Mentor time at the Welcome Area except I do not like to be negative rated for helping people nor do I like to be called every name the ToS allows. Sorry but that has been my experience there lately.

I would like to say that I have been hanging out in WA for a long time and have simply never seen any of this stuff that people get upset about.

I see a lot of stupid sillyness, swearing and the ocaisional streaker, but i have yet to see anyone negrate anyone for no reason, or do anything that could not be construed as "frat" type behaviour. (i.e - distasteful to me but apparently acceptable to society as a whole.) Considering when you leave WA, you are plonked down usually in some sex club, I think the WA could be a *refuge* of sorts for some newbies. Also when the "disruptors" are not there, WA is possibly the most boring place in the game.

I find it disturbing also that people focus on the Violet Manhattans of the WA, but ignore the slave traders and so forth. I have seen newbies tp'ed "to a party" on their first day. This turns out to be an escort house and they are immediately given all kinds of clothes and skins making them indebted to the slave trader or pimp. They are into the prostitution side of things before they even have chance to look at the WA notice board for stuff to do.

I was also there (as an alt) once when some Mistress tried to "hypnotise" me into becoming her personal slave. It did not work, but someone with a weaker personality would certainly be turned. I am very familiar with the whole Dome/sub thing and it still almost worked on me for a bit. The point is for all this person knew i was a week old and a newbie.

These folks are much more disruptive and much more dangerous, than any jokers with stupid animations and loud voices.

What do you say to a newbie that has played the game for a month and their entire experience is being abudcted from the WA to work as a prostitute? Is that what SL is all about?

I respect Linden Lab's ideals, even in the face of disappointing behavior on the part of a small minority of their residents.

In the longterm, I think that the measures enumerated in Robin's posts will go a long way to prevent this sort of problem in the future. I hope more measures are taken in the interim to combat the griefers, though

How does someone in SL hypnotise someone else into becoming their personal slave?

That's, uh... Wow. Disappointing. I had no idea such behavior existed here.

Sigh, I guess it's to be expected in a medium with such freedom. The weak-minded and vulnerable will have to watch out for themselves.

A question I also wondered about and neglected to ask. Sign me up to hear the answer, too.