Limits
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Travis Lambert
White dog, red collar
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,819
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07-28-2005 09:53
From: FlipperPA Peregrine Travis, a few tricks: (1) View --> Beacons --> Scripted Objects / Physical Objects This handy little feature will allow you to track objects by type. They will appear in yellow on the screen, and you can easily see "clusters" of objects and who's land they're on. Object beacons take a little bit of practice to get used to, but walk around a bit with them on and you'll get the hang of it. VERY useful feature! (2) Debug --> Show Updates (Or Control+Alt+Shift+U) This is especially handy to find offending avatars. If an avatar is constantly giving off blue (or heaven forfend, RED) cones, its a naughty, lag creative avatar.  I hope this helps you. Don't give up the good fight, my man! -Flip Thanks, Flip #2 I'm aware of, and use all the time.... but #1 - very, very useful. Gonna do some flying around tonight when I get home, I think
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Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
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07-28-2005 09:57
I don't know about the rest of you, but for me it's very simple. The "fun and aesthetics" factor in SL is one of the main reasons why I pay for a place here. If there's less/no "fun and aesthetics" because of design or technical or circumstantial issues - if I can't use lighting or cut and twisted torii because of limitations, even though they look good - then it doesn't matter what the nature of those issues are. Nothing personal against LL, but I consider leaving. Same reason why, if I've had bad experiences with Fords, I'd sell mine and not buy another.
There are two reasons why I might not leave SL, however. First, as of now, there is no other product that categorically competes with SL. So if I want to do this kind of thing, this is the only choice. Personally, I think that's too bad. Second, I'm curious how SL and the virtual world thing will turn out.
SL's kind of strange and interesting that way. It's a product. Like toothpaste. It "works" or it doesn't. It's also community, an artistic canvas, and an economy, company- and user-created. So the definition of "works" is elastic and I tend to be more tolerant of the product's flaws.
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
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07-28-2005 10:22
From: Khamon Fate ...These are not difficult concepts. I honestly believe that most of us can easily comprehend them. So why do we continue to beat our collective heads against the wall and yell at LL for not providing the miracle we're looking for?... I think in large part because Linden Lab has never come out and said that either formally or informally through coded limitations. Indeed they've been doing exactly the opposite because it suits their marketing strategy. They could say "be conservative", they could limit inventories, they could limit simultaneous logins, they could limit textures per plot, they could lower maximum texture resolution, they could reduce the number of AVs per sim to prior limits, they could limit prim hair or attachement numbers... and that's just off the top of my head. But they don't and do things that encourage otherwise. They give dwelloper incentives to people capable of generating the most load even if that requires having "zombie" AVs. They state that the asset server is overloaded but give no affirmative indication to anyone as to how to use it more efficiently. They ban players who put lag-o-rific scanners in every sim but don't bother to remove the bloody scanners. They have provided no means (nor do I think they have the means) to point at the items that are most costly to performance. So, perhaps bitching that LL isn't curing the problems of their own negligence is incorrect, maybe complaining that they actively encourage otherwise is more apropos. |
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Tya Fallingbridge
Proud Prim Whore
Join date: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 790
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07-28-2005 10:36
From: Khamon Fate Whip me, beat me, and call me cheap but I am still just utterly amazed that we expect The Grid to function without any limits. Why can we not understand that:
keeping bloated inventories are going to cause us personal lag problems;
wearing attachments are going to cause us teleportation problems;
rezzing all the avilable prims in a sim is going to cause us simwide lag problems;
facing hundreds of textures in a viewable area is going to cause us simwide and personal lag problems;
listening to music and watching videos while power playing Second Life is too much for the average PC to handle?
These are not difficult concepts. I honestly believe that most of us can easily comprehend them. So why do we continue to beat our collective heads against the wall and yell at LL for not providing the miracle we're looking for?
Okay yeah I'm gonna take a lot of heat for the term "power playing" so I'll go ahead and clarify it. In this context, it simply refers to wearing scripted attachments while playing an interactive game in a sim with a dozen other avs wearing scripted attachments and playing the game, dancing or building in the opposite corner of the platform. Frankly, it's amazing that some of our simulators don't melt through the floor. And still we complain and demand more more more. Silly Khamon just doesn't get it. *claps* People like to blame others before looking at what they can do to help ...  |
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Branduff Kojima
probably doesn't get it.
Join date: 1 Apr 2004
Posts: 89
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07-28-2005 11:22
I agree with khamon, especially about using up every available prim. On average I have about 40 free prims on my property, and I try to reuse textures as much as I can. Plus, my mime avatar (the one I wear the most) Has zero attachments I'm a great person, believe it  |
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Baccara Rhodes
Social Doyenne
Join date: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 627
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So Mash was right then?
07-28-2005 11:32
keeping bloated inventories are going to cause us personal lag problems;
*Baccara hangs head in shame and looks at feet*
I get the same lecture from Mash every day about my shoe inventory and now Khamon is making me take a long, hard look at my feet....
Perhaps it's time for a shoe sale, but then it just goes to someone ELSE's bloated inventory...
Anyone have a solution? I mean it seems so heartless just to delete... Oh, the irony of it all
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Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
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07-28-2005 11:46
From: Baccara Rhodes Perhaps it's time for a shoe sale, but then it just goes to someone ELSE's bloated inventory...
Anyone have a solution? I mean it seems so heartless just to delete... Oh, the irony of it all Well, one way to look at it is that if a person buys the pair of shoes from you (assuming that it would be removed from your inventory), instead of buying that same pair from the original shop. Then you have only one copy in the world where you would have had two. Also, any items that you have mulitiple copies of is something to start with. Especially if you have it copied several times, but only use it every once in a great while. There are other tips, but those are some that I myself and going to work on doing.
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Branduff Kojima
probably doesn't get it.
Join date: 1 Apr 2004
Posts: 89
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07-28-2005 12:09
going through my inventory and deleting all the objects named "object" cleared up about 100 items altogether. I'm so lazy naming things, and it's generally things I don't care enough about to keep anyway.
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
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07-28-2005 12:58
From: someone Perhaps it's time for a shoe sale, but then it just goes to someone ELSE's bloated inventory... So long as there exists a pair of those shoes (or anything for that matter) in any vendor, store box, or inventory, there is still an entry on the asset server. Which brings to mind an interesting question: have many objects created since the beginning of time (aside from a zillion default cubes) actually left the asset server? I have little doubt that items I created 2 years ago exist in someone's inventory somewhere. |
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FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
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07-28-2005 13:01
From: Pendari Lorentz Well, one way to look at it is that if a person buys the pair of shoes from you (assuming that it would be removed from your inventory), instead of buying that same pair from the original shop. Then you have only one copy in the world where you would have had two. Also, any items that you have mulitiple copies of is something to start with. Especially if you have it copied several times, but only use it every once in a great while. There are other tips, but those are some that I myself and going to work on doing. Another thing you can do is put shoes you rarely wear - let's say, 100 pairs - in another prim. Then take that prim into your inventory with the 100 pairs in its contents and name it "Baccara's Dress Up Shoes". This helps the asset server. How, you ask? Instead of having to search through 100 rows in the database for inventory, it only has 1. So with a little bit a work, and a touch of love, you too can help your own inventory AND help out the SL servers. Enough drops of water do fill a bucket! Regards, -Flip
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Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
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07-28-2005 13:02
From: Malachi Petunia So long as there exists a pair of those shoes (or anything for that matter) in any vendor, store box, or inventory, there is still an entry on the asset server. So you mean if I have two pair of the same shoes, and I delete one pair, it doesn't register on the server as having one less item? From: someone
Which brings to mind an interesting question: have many objects created since the beginning of time (aside from a zillion default cubes) actually left the asset server? I have little doubt that items I created 2 years ago exist in someone's inventory somewhere.
Even with cleaning up, I *know* I have items that have existed since or before I came in Sept. 2003.  EDIT: Oh, and what about builds and inventory and such of people that no longer come into SL but either haven't cancelled their account, or have a lifetime membership? Maybe LL could make a secondary storage server for those items in inventory and on the owners land where they have not been in world for at least such and such amount of months?
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Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
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07-28-2005 13:05
From: FlipperPA Peregrine Another thing you can do is put shoes you rarely wear - let's say, 100 pairs - in another prim. Then take that prim into your inventory with the 100 pairs in its contents and name it "Baccara's Dress Up Shoes". This helps the asset server. How, you ask? Instead of having to search through 100 rows in the database for inventory, it only has 1. So with a little bit a work, and a touch of love, you too can help your own inventory AND help out the SL servers. Enough drops of water do fill a bucket! Yes, this idea works as well. Only I won't put anything super important into a box and drag it into inventory, because I've had a case where I did this and then couldn't get the items back out of the box. 
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
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07-28-2005 13:21
From: someone So you mean if I have two pair of the same shoes, and I delete one pair, it doesn't register on the server as having one less item?
... That is correct, when you create something it gets one of those UUIDs. So long as that UUID exists *anywhere* it must exist on the server. Even if you put it in a box, the asset server still needs to remember it. It may reduce the number of items in your inventory (which might help a teeny bit, certainly for inventory download to you) but should not reduce the number of assets one bit. I *think* if you made the same pair of shoes one tinted brown the other red, they *might* have separate UUIDs, but I don't know. Added: Oh yes, I'm afraid of boxing things too. |
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Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
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07-28-2005 13:27
From: Malachi Petunia That is correct, when you create something it gets one of those UUIDs. So long as that UUID exists *anywhere* it must exist on the server. Even if you put it in a box, the asset server still needs to remember it. It may reduce the number of items in your inventory (which might help a teeny bit, certainly for inventory download to you) but should not reduce the number of assets one bit. Ok then. I suppose the only way then that cleaning out your inventory would help, is if you *only* cleaned out items you created and never sold or gave away or made copies, and then deleted them? Otherwise it seems like just what you said, only an issue that could help an individual (and I don't have load issues so for me that doesn't even matter). BUT, cleaning up scripts can help right?
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
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07-28-2005 13:28
Wow, this is all well and good but it doesnt answer my burning question. Why was I able to teleport with no issues at all with 11 attachments (yeah so what) for months and now teleport fails 75% of the time with 2 attachments? It is a nice effort to blame end users for flaws in software, as a matter of fact I built a career on it , but it doesn't solve anything. |
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Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
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07-28-2005 13:30
From: Eboni Khan Why was I able to teleport with no issues at all with 11 attachments (yeah so what) for months and now teleport fails 75% of the time with 2 attachments?
hehe.. I think the discussion sort of evolved away from just the TP issue. Personally I agree the TP issue must be something major and that it is something only the Lindens can fix. I guess we were tossing around ideas for ways we could improve performance in other areas though.
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
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07-28-2005 13:36
From: Pendari Lorentz hehe.. I think the discussion sort of evolved away from just the TP issue. Personally I agree the TP issue must be something major and that it is something only the Lindens can fix. I guess we were tossing around ideas for ways we could improve performance in other areas though. Actually no I am bringing the conversation to a larger point. The fact that customers are constantly forced to invent new work around for the new flaws that pop up every week. If isn't one thing its another. Yes some people are greedy but so what. You can't tell someone with a 512 plot not to use all their Prims, they dont have any. People pay for those prims why can't they use them all? The software should be designed to support full prim usage or the number of prims should be limited. It is a pretty simple concept. The current lighting system of lack there of a lighting system is a pointless conversation, the current system is useless, making night time dismal. Part of the reason a lot of people have such massive inventories are due to the flaws in the permissions system. Again, it really all comes back to software, blaming customers is just lame. |
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Baccara Rhodes
Social Doyenne
Join date: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 627
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Shoes Shoes Shoes
07-28-2005 15:51
Boy when Mash gets back, is he gonna be happy to know that other people (ummm shoes fetish perhaps Flip?) get as freaked thinking about my shoe inventory as he does... Thanks for the tips all... Looks like I have some cleaning up to do... Hugs all around OK Back to another one of Flip's threads...
Take a drink EVERY time Baccara blips the servers with her shoe inventory!
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DEPOZ
Depoz E, W, Celebrations & Specialties !
Define YOUR Space
We have it ALL for you...
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Christopher Omega
Oxymoron
Join date: 28 Mar 2003
Posts: 1,828
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07-28-2005 23:48
From: Aimee Weber Just turn the option on and look at your scripted object. It will give off a glow every time it does something. Blue glows are small amounts of work, red glows are large amounts. If you see a flurry of activity around your object it MAY be causing lag.
Actually... almost right, but not quite The "Show Updates" option in the debug menu only shows things that make your client download data from the server. If the script is causing purely server-side lag (like using listens), then it will not appear here. When the update is blue, your client only downloads a few properties of the object from the server, when red, the client downloads *all* properties of the object, when green, the object is rezzing. That's why your wings emit blue updates, *only* the texture (or alpha) changes are sent to clients viewing your wings. Lots of red updates will eat a user's bandwith when they view the object, so if you're emitting them continuously, stop Blue shouldnt be that bad - physical objects (like avatars and most elevators) emit a trail of blue updates whenever they move. ==Chris |
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Catherine Cotton
Tis Elfin
Join date: 2 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,001
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07-29-2005 00:30
From: Khamon Fate Whip me, beat me, and call me cheap but I am still just utterly amazed that we expect The Grid to function without any limits. Why can we not understand that:
keeping bloated inventories are going to cause us personal lag problems;
wearing attachments are going to cause us teleportation problems;
rezzing all the avilable prims in a sim is going to cause us simwide lag problems;
facing hundreds of textures in a viewable area is going to cause us simwide and personal lag problems;
listening to music and watching videos while power playing Second Life is too much for the average PC to handle?
These are not difficult concepts. I honestly believe that most of us can easily comprehend them. So why do we continue to beat our collective heads against the wall and yell at LL for not providing the miracle we're looking for?
Okay yeah I'm gonna take a lot of heat for the term "power playing" so I'll go ahead and clarify it. In this context, it simply refers to wearing scripted attachments while playing an interactive game in a sim with a dozen other avs wearing scripted attachments and playing the game, dancing or building in the opposite corner of the platform. Frankly, it's amazing that some of our simulators don't melt through the floor. And still we complain and demand more more more. Silly Khamon just doesn't get it. I hear ya Khamon, prim example at an event check the sim fps 12 omg time to go home! but before I go home I hear the host telling everyone "there is nothing I can do about the lag" eeep Cat PS: As I was cleaning out my inventory and finding "object" upon "object" I started to wonder what in the heck was I thinking keeping just a plain prim box. Then I remembered us older folks used to have to pay L$10 per prim we used. I guess I was cheap back then holding onto every prim I ever rezzed lol. Made me wonder tho how many of us have 500 "object" in our inventories? Yes I am cleaning house lol |
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Byron McHenry
Registered User
Join date: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 204
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07-29-2005 02:41
From: Khamon Fate Whip me, beat me, and call me cheap but I am still just utterly amazed that we expect The Grid to function without any limits. Why can we not understand that:
keeping bloated inventories are going to cause us personal lag problems;
wearing attachments are going to cause us teleportation problems;
rezzing all the avilable prims in a sim is going to cause us simwide lag problems;
facing hundreds of textures in a viewable area is going to cause us simwide and personal lag problems;
listening to music and watching videos while power playing Second Life is too much for the average PC to handle?
These are not difficult concepts. I honestly believe that most of us can easily comprehend them. So why do we continue to beat our collective heads against the wall and yell at LL for not providing the miracle we're looking for?
Okay yeah I'm gonna take a lot of heat for the term "power playing" so I'll go ahead and clarify it. In this context, it simply refers to wearing scripted attachments while playing an interactive game in a sim with a dozen other avs wearing scripted attachments and playing the game, dancing or building in the opposite corner of the platform. Frankly, it's amazing that some of our simulators don't melt through the floor. And still we complain and demand more more more. Silly Khamon just doesn't get it. the tp bugs were introduced by these latest patches. attachments isnt a new thing as soon as they fix the bug things will be back the way it was. there would be no point to limit attachments because id have the same problem no matter how complex the attachment was. it just a bug. |
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Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
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07-29-2005 12:33
With the new Havoc 2 engine, we will have an entirely new view of lag. Inventory is the least of our worries, friends: /3/82/40805/1.html Take a look at the crap floating around in the sky. |
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Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
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07-29-2005 12:41
From: Cindy Claveau With the new Havoc 2 engine, we will have an entirely new view of lag. Inventory is the least of our worries, friends: /3/82/40805/1.html Take a look at the crap floating around in the sky. Well, that's actually the 2.0 render engine rather than Havock 2. And I think we all look forward to finding out how everyone's going to deal with having no where to hide thier sex balls. |
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Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
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07-29-2005 13:08
From: Jillian Callahan Well, that's actually the 2.0 render engine rather than Havock 2. And I think we all look forward to finding out how everyone's going to deal with having no where to hide thier sex balls. You can always hide stuff inside yourself! 
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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07-29-2005 13:21
From: Pendari Lorentz You can always hide stuff inside yourself! Like a sumo wrestler we get our balls to recede into our bodies? Concept!
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
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