Point-to-point != kill Telehubs

Honestly the majority of players want point to point, so give it to them. I know if I can't have all access point to point, then a limited number would be nice. Let me designate ten of my favorite landmarks for point to point. If not that, I agree being charge a nominal fee (perhaps $L5) for each universal p2p would act as a money sink and be a preferred method of travel on that occasion I dont want to fly 900m from a hub over sometimes very annoying terrain.

Well, why not have candles AND lights? We do.

So why not have telehubs AND p2p?

I like the idea of compensating telehub land owners with extra prims. That will keep the value of their land more always.

I also like the idea of charging to use p2p and not to use telehubs. I would be the person who NEVER used p2p, and felt bunches smarter for it.

Charging to use p2p and leaving telehubs would be the best possible solution all around for everybody, and provide a good luxury money sink, too, imo. (I'm in favor of luxury money sinks, rather than hardship ones on the poor.)

coco

The Nova Albion prim bonuses are achieved using a multiplier os 2x. If sims are granted 30,000 prims under Havok 2, which is by the way a myth and will never actually be fully integrated, standard land owners will have the use of 7 prims per 16sm parcel while city land owners will have the use of 14. Woohoo!

I believe this to be an assumption that every one of us makes. The assumption that merchants wouldnt be there if they weren't getting traffic and sales; since they do rent them, they /MUST/ be getting traffic and sales.

I believe that assumption has not been supported by actualy data. For example, has anyone done any field work, observing people at telehubs? Has anyone examined the traffic numbers in Find Places? Has anyone done any random survey of the people in telehubs to ask them if they bought anything; sort of an "exit poll"? Are those findings published anywhere?

I'd love to see some data on the subject.

Its easy to just keep making the same assumptions over and over. Its hard to stand back and acknowledge that they are assumptions, and move on from there. Either to prove the assumptions and turn them into facts. Or to find new facts to take their place.

But it is a mistake to continue to treat assumptions as facts.

Of course, Im assuming that they are in fact assumptions because I haven't seen evidence to the contrary. So maybe I should shut up now.

Prokofy has.

In RL, I am in a wheelchair and can't walk. In SL, I can walk and fly. Does Linden Lab need to modify SL-Jarod to fit the same limitations of RL-Andy? This is not RL. This is SL. The rules are different.

I think a big part of the importance of owning land near a telehub is convenience for the customer. It makes for a nicer shopping experience when you find a store in Find, teleport, and only have a short flight to get there. It sparks a "Ooo, I like this place. It's close to the telehub." type of thought and makes the store memorable.

I could be wrong, but I can't see telehub window shopping being all that big a deal. I would think that most people already have a destination in mind when going through a telehub and, given that it can take quite a while for things to be visible after arriving at a telehub, they will just fly straight there (well, dodging the invisible buildings) without even noticing any shops inbetween.

I have window shopped myself, but it's almost always after I arrive at where I wanted to go. Any time I have window shopped prior (and even in the first case), it was because something actually appeared that looked interesting.

The one thing I very rarely do (in fact I'm not sure I ever actually did it) is window shop just for the sake of doing it.

If I'm looking for something, I'll find a related store in the Find window and teleport there. I sure as hell am not going to wander around randomly looking for it.

HP

Anshe,
Don't take this the wrong way but are you worried about your personal interest as the grids largest land holder or what the majority of SL wants?

As I stated in a post I created a few days ago, the only reason land around telehubs are worth so much money is because those who won it from auctions set a huge price tag on it to begin with out of specualtion. I am not saying this is a bad thing, you are 100% entitled to do this. My point is, large profits have been made off this land and I have witnessed first hand, certain land dealers, including yourself, have a cycle of rebuying the same parcels low and selling them high.

Why are you not concerned when those same customers of yours are losing money when that happens?

I tend to agree that some sort of cash compensation for TH landowners is probably not a good idea.

And - you cannot compare the loss of value of TH land to the loss of value that occurs when a spammy club opens up next to you.

There's two primary distinction points:

1. These changes here are being done by Linden. When a club moves next to you, that's a resident-to-resident move, as opposed to a global Linden policy change.

2. Land values have to do with scarcity. The more scarce a resource is, the more valuable it becomes. That's simple economics. If your neighbors change (and they always do) - that has little to do with the scarcity of your parcel.

Land in the City Sims is ultra-scarce, hence the high value.

Land with higher terraform limits is scarce, and has a higher value.

TH Land is more scarce than non-TH land, hence the high value.

If Linden (not residents) chooses to make a policy decision that changes the scarcity equation of land, I feel that they should take steps to mitigate that. A cash grant to TH landowners does nothing to change the scarcity, which is why I don't support it.

Adding additional prim limits to these areas could solve the scarcity problem - but as Buster correctly points out - land values around telehubs are on a continum. My land does not surround the telehub, but it is in a telehub sim, and 100m from the central telehub. I paid $15/sqm for it. That wasn't a recent purchase, either. Telehub land values have existed for as long as I've been in SL.

I get the feeling that because the primary telehub landowner is Anshe, many are playing the game of 'lets stick it to Anshe' - and treating the other landowners who have made an investment there as just collateral damage.

If another land-scarcity question comes up in the future that is the result of a Linden policy change, will you still maintain this same position of no compensation/no mitigation?

I own a venue that is near a telehub. The two biggest benefits I receive are ease of travel (important because I cater to new residents) and the 'green dot' effect. (There are a lot of folks, who when they see a mass of green dots on their mini-map, tend to go & investigate).

The folks who are stating that Telehubs make absolutely no difference in traffic/sales obviously are not telehub landowners themselves.

Travis I can only speak of my own shops. I have 3 stores , 2 are in the same sim as a telehub, one, which was the original, is 2 sims from a telehub.

My store that is 2 sims away is consistantly my highest traffic store and best sales. I do realize this could just be because it was my original store.

I'd guess that it is because its your original store. I don't shop much myself, but I know from my own experience - when I do a FIND search on something, and many identical locations come up for the same thing, I tend to visit the one with the highest traffic score first. Maybe I'm thinking that one will have the most 'current' stuff. Not sure.

It would be curious, however - if you moved those two telehub stores to a location on the new continent 1000m from a hub. I know its just conjecture - but I'd guess that your sales at those ancillary locations would drop quite a bit.

Unless you're holding events in your store, I'm not sure you're going to get as much of a benefit from being simply in the same sim as a TH as I do. In the past, I've asked my customers how they found us. Often they say, "I was just flying, and saw something going on".

The reason TH land carries with it a high price isn't simply because Anshe ordained it. TH parcels are scarce resources, and command a higher price because of it. (Now *how* high a price... OK, I'm with ya there)

Your opening line says it all. Being human beings, we base our behavior on our beliefs.

Hard data doesn't matter, unless you want to try an "education campaign" to convince merchants that telehubs are bad places to rent stalls. Such a campaign (if successful) would have the same effect as any other means of making telehub land worthless.

The bottom line is, very often a change will hurt some people and help others. LL must balance these. Personally, I have limited my investment in SL because of reliability problems and the tendency for things to change. To attract investment (i.e., to cause people to spend substnatial money on SL), SL must be predictable. I think this is a lot more important than most people realize.

I think there is more at stake than just the mechanical effects of one change or another. There is the sentiment of those people who send money to LL by the US$1,000's. If there are fewer of them, then YOUR monthly fees would have to go up. Some people say, "fine, I'd pay more to get rid of commercialism". But there is a chorus of complainers about how you don't get enough $L and $10 a month is too much. The effects of discouraging the commercial class would be that YOU would pay MORE. Simple arithmetic.

Buster

It seems your all missing the big picture.


WHAT WOULD THIS DO TO THE MAIN GRID!

at present there are tons of malls, clubs, and events. these are typically located all near eachother and away from most peoples homes. with telehubs being the "hot spot" this allows the average player who wants to own land and not be near a laggy club to do so. with the p2p teleporting you save yourself a small flight (which limits your SL experience mind you) and what do you get? your get a chaotic unorganized world full of anarchy and discord. I picture malls next to homes, stripclubs near daycares, beautiful sims slowed to a halt, p2p teleporting thriving strong. I just hope you can move!

Can you imagine at least 1 club or mall in every sim? I can
Can you see a bright future for the main grid? I cant

p2p teleporting sounds awsome, but would create havok around the grid.

Yes! I do often think that!

And I think if telehubs are abolished, landowners nearby should be compensated with an extra allotment of prims that lasts forever, OR a hefty amount of money and they can move; whichever they choose..

coco

I agree to a certain degree Travis.

Here is the cycles I have witnessed.

1) Land Dealer wins land in auction

2)Land dealer sets a price that makes them enough profit to make it worth the time.

Nothing wrong with this. I am all for it.

3)Joe Shmoe comes and pays the 4-5 times for that telehub land.

4)Joe Shmoe no longer wants the land and sells it back to the land dealer at a loss

5)Land dealer buys it back for cheaper than they sold it for.

6)Land Dealer pts it back on the Market for a profit worth their time.

7)Jane Doe buys that same parcel.

Months pass and Jane Do no longer wants it, sells it back to the same land dealer for a loss.

9)Land Dealer puts it back on the market.......

On and on and on.

Ive witnessed this many times with many parcels. It is a cycle that never end. Still, I agree there is nothing wrong with this. My point is, that land dealer was never outraged that their customers were losing money then. So now all of a sudden I am suposed to believe they are worried about people losing money? I do not buy it. Just come out and say that truth, your worried about your own personal interest and losing a revenue stream.

FALSE!

There are clubs EVERY WHERE now. Telehubs do not attract more traffic. Just look at the top parcel list. A good percentage are no where near telehubs. The biggest problem about clubs is that customers have a hard time even traveling from your sim, P2P fixes that problem. See I am being honest here, I am worried about my personal interest as a SL business owner.

ANother analogy using my 3 shops. I have 2 near telehubs, no clubs around. I have a third 2 sims away from a telehub. In order to get to that one you have to fly through a sim that has a casino in the direct path from a telehub. I have lost so much business because when they decide to have free money nights (few times a week) people cant even fly through that sim to my land. Direct TP would solve this problem for me.

Okay, I'm a newbie here (barely three weeks) and as one perhaps I can throw a fresh view on it.

I see Telehubs as a bus stop. That's what they are. You are bussed to a stop and you walk (fly) to your final desitination. Fine.

IMHO about this "TH mall/window shop" thing, honestly, I've NEVER window shopped. I use "FIND" to find what I am looking for, "bus" over there, and fly. As a shopper I do not see the use of TH land unless I just want to save time flying. Even then, FIND doesn't tell Me what is close to a TH or what isn't. I pick and go. And I usually ignore what's on the way because I'm flying up too high to see anyway.

Now, with P2P, that's a "car". With a car, you pay for gas and sometimes pay for parking. I would love P2P but I would understand it coming with a price. It saves My online time and get things done quicker.

I do not see the trouble with having both. I've been known to take the bus even though I have a car. Hell, I've flown 3,000/m just because I wanted to fly.

'Sides, landmarks exist already. Isn't P2P the same thing only backward?

It's another choice we will have. Let's use it.

Makes sense. And sadly, I'll probably become another one of the Joe Schmos on your list.


I'm pretty much stuck until Linden clarifies what they're going to do on this one way or another. In fact, I think that's one thing that everyone involved would probably agree with me on..... Linden: Clairify your position on this once & for all so we can move on!

If a fee was charged for p2p, based upon distance - that's about the best compromise I've heard. For those that demand that it is important enough to TP immediately? Fine, pay for that luxury.

If you don't have any cash, but still want to TP immediately? Use Hank's free p2p solution.

Destination too far away & expensive? TP to the hub, and pay to p2p the rest of the way.

And if you don't care one way or another, you can still use the old method (for free).

Telehub areas will continue to be scarce resources, and no one loses their shirt. Problem solved.

I agree with the fee also. Except I think I should be the one paying the fee as a store owner. I am confident I would absorb the price with a profit because of easier access and it is hard enough for new people to make and keep their L$.

Let me pay a flat rate and have a telehub on my land.

That wont work - because it does nothing to address the scarce resource issue. If anyone was able to purchase a telehub for their property, now we're back to square one again. That isn't a compromise.

(no offence, Beau)

I dont quite see how your message got from where I started to "discouraging the commercial class". That is not what I intended to say at all. And apologize if anything Ive said on the subject of P2P or telehub markets would lead anyone to that conclusion.

All of my messages in this discussion are intended to do two things. Encourage consideration of both Telehubs and P2P co-existing. And encouraging everyone to test the assumption that markets around telehubs actually make money.

Sorry for any confusion.

Scarce resource issue? If you are refering to lag and asset server issues, it does fix that. People flying and loading thousands of textures and scripts to get from point A to B is one of the main things taxing the system.

I'm note a code monkey or DB guy so am going by what I'm told.

I also encourage the consideration of keeping telehubs and allowing p2p. I don't see why the two have to be mutually exclusive.

As for markets around telehubs making money.. They do, but only for the people renting out or selling the land. I've had Hub stores before, and they didn't do well at all. Not only that, but they were a pain in the butt to update because of the lag that always seems to be surrounding them. Add to that the fact that I can't list rented space in Find, and it was far more trouble than it was ever worth. My main store is a sim and a half away from a hub now, and I do about 20X the business there than I ever did at a hub. The majority of people I've talked to have claimed that they leave hubs as quickly as possible.

As for the inflated price of Hub land and recompensating landowners.. No. LL did not inflate the price of the land because it was around a hub. The land barons did that. Hub land sells at auction for the same price as every other bit of land. I haven't ever gotten compensation from someone when someone else came out with a better product, and I don't see why land should be any different.

If you (collectively) really think people should be compensated for their land value going down... there are a lot of reasons land value can decrease, and the compensation should start with the first instances, not the latest. New sims added, casinos and clubs go up.. etc. I had a great plot surrounded by Protected Linden land which I was told wouldn't be sold, and then that Protected land was sold and the landscape was ruined. I didn't receive any compensation for that.

No compensation, for anyone, for any reason. People who paid that amount of money did so on their own accord through auction processes. I totally agree with Cris and a few other posters.

Example: My land in Luo is a far away from the telehubs as you can get. I like it that way, in fact paid extra money to continue that enjoyment. So, if people are just going to pop in and out with P2P.....WHO WILL COMPENSATE ME?.... Answer, nobody.

Compensation is a slippery slope and will reek of favortism and mass complaint. The TOS says no compensation, so no compensation it is.

The main issue of teleporting is not the hub, its crossing sims. P2P will lighten the load and help eliminate that darn bug of falling through the world, when the assest server still has you in another sim.

I have no issue with telehub land owners. They should be aware of the risks and LL should have no input on land value, but I do take exception to favortism.

Seems the obvious solution is to keep telehubs, and allow land owners to opt in or out of P2P.