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Resident Action Committee -- MJW followers and such, please read.

Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
09-03-2005 14:34
From: blaze Spinnaker
I'm going to assume everyone gets the satire.


I try not to let people's assumptions get in the way of facts. So just in case they did not get what you were trying to say/show, I have to respond as though no one in the world knows what the hell you are talking about. :p
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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
09-03-2005 14:36
Anyways.

Just like I thought what Anshe and Prok and whoever else was doing a great thing, I think this is a great thing as well.

But don't kid yourselves, it's exactly the same thing.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
09-03-2005 14:38
From: Chip Midnight
So I take it this means SL is now a two party system? :p
Seems like the other party is DOA. ;)
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Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
09-03-2005 14:38
From: blaze Spinnaker
Anyways.

Just like I thought what Anshe and Prok and whoever else was doing a great thing, I think this is a great thing as well.

But don't kid yourselves, it's exactly the same thing.


Nah, it isn't. But then, I'm the wacko who actually read every single post and every single line of every single chat log put out about that group and its opponents. So one thing we can know for certain, the RAC lets freaks in. :p :o
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Beau Perkins
Second Life Resident.
Join date: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,061
09-03-2005 14:39
Lordfly, it is always good to have some type of meeting agenda. If you do not, the meeting will become chaos. Everyone will have a topic to talk about out loud.
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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
09-03-2005 14:42
Hey you can't exclude me we have to talk about panties

I mean, like, I thought this was open and everything. What's going ON???

There is a huge panty contigent in SL you know
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
09-03-2005 14:43
From: Beau Perkins
Lordfly, it is always good to have some type of meeting agenda. If you do not, the meeting will become chaos. Everyone will have a topic to talk about out loud.



Why not have everyone at the meeting state one topic they would like to discuss. Then throw those nominations in a hat and pick one. Whichever topic comes out, that is the one we talk about to present to the Lindens as Lordfly detailed in his first post?

If one topic is too short, or we get done with one, we could always draw the next one. But at least this way, the people that show up to the meeting have some way to express what they would like to discuss. And no one person (or small group) makes an agenda. (especially since some that don't read the forums will hopefully be there).

Any thoughts on that?
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April Firefly
Idiosyncratic Poster
Join date: 3 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,253
09-03-2005 14:47
I keep forgetting, are we wearing the red bandanas or the blue bandanas?


COLOR=Navy]****


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From: Billybob Goodliffe
the truth is overrated :D

From: Argent Stonecutter
The most successful software company in the world does a piss-poor job on all these points. Particularly the first three. Why do you expect Linden Labs to do any better?
Yes, it's true, I have a blog now!
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
09-03-2005 14:48
heh heh OK if you do that, then I am mistaken then you are doing something different.

But really, come on. If it is going to be thoughtful and productive, you need to hash out some ideas which have been deeply debated and all sides have been considered.

Someone then needs to take that discussion and summarize it in a useful way and when it comes to discussing it.. that spokeperson needs to step up and go head to head with philip as he tries to respond.

Otherwise, it's just the forums and the townhalls all over again.

Picking random topics will just be .. well .. random in / random out.

Pendari, come on, as a veteran of nberg you must be well aware of the issues that are arising here, and they are exactly the same that I'm sure Anshe/Prok ran into as well when they tried to get their group together.

You may try to solve them yourselves, but in the end, it's going to be exclusive, it is going to be representative. Otherwise, it's just going to be random conversation, which we already have plenty of.

(I do like random conversation though, don't get me wrong)
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
09-03-2005 14:58
From: April Firefly
I keep forgetting, are we wearing the red bandanas or the blue bandanas?


Hmmm...
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Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
09-03-2005 15:00
From: blaze Spinnaker
heh heh OK if you do that, then I am mistaken then you are doing something different.

But really, come on. If it is going to be thoughtful and productive, you need to hash out some ideas which have been deeply debated and all sides have been considered.

Someone then needs to take that discussion and summarize it in a useful way and when it comes to discussing it.. that spokeperson needs to step up and go head to head with philip as he tries to respond.

Otherwise, it's just the forums and the townhalls all over again.

Picking random topics will just be .. well .. random in / random out.

Pendari, come on, as a veteran of nberg you must be well aware of the issues that are arising here, and they are exactly the same that I'm sure Anshe/Prok ran into as well when they tried to get their group together.

You may try to solve them yourselves, but in the end, it's going to be exclusive, it is going to be representative. Otherwise, it's just going to be random conversation, which we already have plenty of.

(I do like random conversation though, don't get me wrong)


I *do* hear what you are saying Blaze. And I do agree. In Neualt we have a definite structure and constitution and policies, and a whole slew of things our govenment has to do. Checks and Balances and all sorts of things.

But this group here is not wanting to be a government. Therefore in many ways it has to take a much less structured approach. Lordfly has already stated in his first post that he would send the full chat logs, as well as summaries to LL before we meet with them. So the "paperwork" is already being taken care of. And I agree *someone* has to do that job. As long as this stays out in the open, there is no way Lordfly can fudge what it said. And Kudos to Lordfly for taking on that job!

On that note, I'd also like to say that personally I feel like there should be *no* officers in this group. It should be open enrollment. Lordfly has to stay an officer as the founder and for invites only. But otherwise, we should all just be regular members the same across the board. In a way, Lordfly becomes our secretary. :D
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Gabrielle Assia
Mostly Ignorant
Join date: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 262
09-03-2005 15:05
From: blaze Spinnaker
no it's open to everyone I think, which is great, because I have some points about aimee's panties I'd like to bring up with Philip


I'm not sure I ever remember reading where Aimee opened
her panties to everyone... did I miss that post?

Gabrielle
Burke Prefect
Cafe Owner, Superhero
Join date: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 2,785
09-03-2005 15:07
From: Chris Wilde
I still think "Legion of Doom" would be a better committee name.


League of Villainy & Evil! IM me with your requests to join! (It's not open enrollment at them moment, I'm locking down a few things here and there.
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Beau Perkins
Second Life Resident.
Join date: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,061
09-03-2005 15:09
From: Pendari Lorentz
Why not have everyone at the meeting state one topic they would like to discuss. Then throw those nominations in a hat and pick one. Whichever topic comes out, that is the one we talk about to present to the Lindens as Lordfly detailed in his first post?

If one topic is too short, or we get done with one, we could always draw the next one. But at least this way, the people that show up to the meeting have some way to express what they would like to discuss. And no one person (or small group) makes an agenda. (especially since some that don't read the forums will hopefully be there).

Any thoughts on that?


WOrth a try, may still get chaotic though
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
09-03-2005 15:51
From: Cristiano Midnight
Nope - I am providing support to organizations whose agenda and membership I support.

At this point in catching up on the forums, may I point out that as this group as yet has no agenda (at least to this point in my reading), it would be more accurate to say that you are providing advertising support only to a roster of membership you support.

Which I would also suggest might be a bit premature as well.

coco
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
09-03-2005 15:55
From: Cocoanut Koala
At this point in catching up on the forums, may I point out that as this group as yet has no agenda (at least to this point in my reading), it would be more accurate to say that you are providing advertising support only to a roster of membership you support.

Which I would also suggest might be a bit premature as well.


Maybe once you're done cleansing the images of people you don't like off of SL.com and the news media, you can lobby LL to compel Snapzilla to post ad banners for everyone!

'Cause of fairness and such, you know. Equal opportunity to be heard, all that stuff.
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From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
09-03-2005 16:10
From: Enabran Templar
Maybe once you're done cleansing the images of people you don't like off of SL.com and the news media, you can lobby LL to compel Snapzilla to post ad banners for everyone!

'Cause of fairness and such, you know. Equal opportunity to be heard, all that stuff.

Lies, Enabran. Nothing but lies. I never said anything about cleansing the images of people I don't like off SL.com. You know that perfectly well.

I am for including more images of people on SL.com instead of the same few people before months on end. When I joined the game, I thought it was quite neat there were all those images. But then they didn't change. Now, at that point, I had no idea who was who!

I made the suggestion the change them, saying that I kept looking at the same old-fashioned looking guy all the time, and why not include more? Turns out the guy was Marcus Fonzarelli and I thought, woops.

The best thing the Lindens have on this forums is the brilliant idea of having the images on the front page - which I ALSO said at the time and ALSO expect you to present FOR me as something else entirely - and it turns out that wasn't even their brilliant idea; Cristiano told me it was his (not to put it on SL.com, but to have them change every so often). And it IS the best thing on the site.

So now why don't you decide you are going to do some kind of crappy job turning THAT into something entirely other of what I have actually said, in the most unethical manner possible?

Why don't you just go RIGHT ON AHEAD telling everyone YOU don't like exactly what they said and what they want and believe and think, making SURE to distort it and get it to be some sort of lie to make them look bad, and even have the gall to decide who they like and don't like, and tell the world that FOR them, when in fact you are completely incorrect.

Because that is what you do best.

In fact, sometimes I think it's all you can do.

coco
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
09-03-2005 16:26
From: Cocoanut Koala
In fact, sometimes I think it's all you can do.


I can also cook cheeseburgers!

You can't have one, though. :P
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From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
09-03-2005 17:11
Cocoanut has been consistent in her message that changing out the images on SL.com is important. I happen to agree with her - in fact, I have made the same suggestion many times. I don't quite understand why it is so difficult for LL. They managed to get video and pictures on the front page, but they can't update the site? Hell, just the stupid forum header has been there WAY too long. I do think it does a disservice both to those in the spotlight (in terms of creating resentment for something outside their control), and to those who aren't ever, in terms of feeling unappreciated. It is a lose, lose situation, and it is understandable that people are frustrated. Cocoanut has never waged a campaign to get people she does not like removed - on the contrary, she has tried to get more and more people included.
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Cristiano


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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
09-03-2005 17:12
From: Enabran Templar
I can also cook cheeseburgers!

You can't have one, though. :P

Now your cheeseburgers, that I could go for!

coco

P.S. Thank you, Cristiano! That is exactly what I've been saying, and why.
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
09-03-2005 17:23
From: Cristiano Midnight
Cocoanut has been consistent in her message that changing out the images on SL.com is important. I happen to agree with her - in fact, I have made the same suggestion many times. I don't quite understand why it is so difficult for LL. They managed to get video and pictures on the front page, but they can't update the site? Hell, just the stupid forum header has been there WAY too long. I do think it does a disservice both to those in the spotlight (in terms of creating resentment for something outside their control), and to those who aren't ever, in terms of feeling unappreciated. It is a lose, lose situation, and it is understandable that people are frustrated. Cocoanut has never waged a campaign to get people she does not like removed - on the contrary, she has tried to get more and more people included.


I agree with Ano and Coco on this. ABSOLUTELY... I want to see more diversity represented. There are no furries up there (as an example). :)

I think this points to a fundamental disconnect in the system: LL emphasizes Resident-run solutions. Okeydokey, great, we can change a lot in the world but the forum banner ain't a wiki, it's not collaborative and can't be tweaked out. (Issues of people putting goatse up there aside.)

I also wanna mouseover and be able to see, with hovertext, "Who are those avatars?" or maybe even click on them and be taken to their profile on a website (since this seems linked with publish in 1.7, it's a NATURAL PROGRESSION). It wows me that I can meet them inworld.

There are areas I'd like to see updated. Theoretically, if I was given the keys to the jeep, I'd drive it, y0. And not just me, I've heard many Residents want to play a more active role in improving SL, and we need the tools. :)
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
09-03-2005 17:28
From: Torley Torgeson
I agree with Ano and Coco on this. ABSOLUTELY... I want to see more diversity represented. There are no furries up there (as an example). :)

I think this points to a fundamental disconnect in the system: LL emphasizes Resident-run solutions. Okeydokey, great, we can change a lot in the world but the forum banner ain't a wiki, it's not collaborative and can't be tweaked out. (Issues of people putting goatse up there aside.)

I also wanna mouseover and be able to see, with hovertext, "Who are those avatars?" or maybe even click on them and be taken to their profile on a website (since this seems linked with publish in 1.7, it's a NATURAL PROGRESSION). It wows me that I can meet them inworld.

There are areas I'd like to see updated. Theoretically, if I was given the keys to the jeep, I'd drive it, y0. And not just me, I've heard many Residents want to play a more active role in improving SL, and we need the tools. :)

Add me to the list of those who agree.

I think that the excuse we were fed about time and staffing concerns are just that - an excuse, and I don't buy it.

This may sound harsh, but there are literally grade school kids who could ftp up (or transfer over the network, whatever the case may be) new pics in a short period of time.

Change the damned pics.

Not only is it about time for the sake of diversity, many of us are tired of hearing about it, wrong, right, or indifferent.

Quit handing out bullets.

PS, could someone start a thread specifically about this so we can get LL to deal with it once and for all?
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Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
09-03-2005 20:32
Hi all, thanks for your interest and discussion.

I'd like to add that the group is structured as Pendari suggested -- everyone's a member (called "Resident";). I'm the only officer of the group for administrative purposes. My group title is also "Resident". I'll be the guy collating all the info and sending it off to the Lindens.

Robin and Phil have agreed to meet with us later in the week, I just need to figure out a good time for them. I may not be able to attend, but I trust someone will (Lindens always have a crowd). I'd appreciate people going to that meeting to post the logs publically for posterity.

And as to setting up a specific agenda, I'd like to avoid that. The point of these meetings is for the "man on the street" to come and voice his opinions on policies, rules, features, whatever about SL. As such, I can't come up with an agenda ahead of time. I want an unstructured dialogue. From there we can weed out the mush and get some major points in there.

Finally, I'd love for European players to host thier own meetings, in much the same way. I can't be up at 5 AM, sadly, to host them, but I'm hoping someone will step up for it, int he same manner I did.


One more thing... due to a Linden database screwup, I can't have the meeting at the Waterhead Conference rooms (it won't show up in my events place listing). So, It's going to be in Grignano. All dwell (along with some other money) will be donated to an in-world charity. Suggestions welcome (Is there a hurricane katrina charity yet?)

Hope to see you there! Sunday at 5 PM PST.

LF
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Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
09-03-2005 21:04
From: Lordfly Digeridoo

Robin and Phil have agreed to meet with us later in the week, I just need to figure out a good time for them. I may not be able to attend, but I trust someone will (Lindens always have a crowd). I'd appreciate people going to that meeting to post the logs publically for posterity.

And as to setting up a specific agenda, I'd like to avoid that. The point of these meetings is for the "man on the street" to come and voice his opinions on policies, rules, features, whatever about SL. As such, I can't come up with an agenda ahead of time. I want an unstructured dialogue. From there we can weed out the mush and get some major points in there.


I wish you luck going in with a bunch of unorganized people not on the same page, with no agenda, with no game plan, with no requests, and no leadership, but please look at the reality of the position you have put yourself in.

I would bet that despite the NDA and "tourist" controversy, the MJW groups meeting will be seen as a more productive and better organized affair if you follow these guidelines you have proposed in terms of structure and content.

If you don't see the risk to your own justification by not attending, inviting everyone, not having a spokesperson present a unified front, and not setting a game plan before not going in, then I think your lack of foresight has doomed your group from it's start, and even more dangerously, risks jeopardizing the platform Philip gave to those of us willing to put the time in to organize at least some reason for existing (besides being anti Justice League).

My experience in real life shows this simply will not work, except as possibly a feel good party for those attending. If you waste Philips time with no agenda and everyone talking at once, he may very well feel he has opened himself to a tremendous waste of time, which no productive CEO can afford to do.

I appeal to you to make a game plan if indeed you have been offered a meeting. To not do that is jeopardizing the gift of the venue that Philip has offered. I hope you took this more seriously than a forum for taking cheap shots at other groups, but honestly, nothing in your agenda seems productive and might be very destructive in the over all concept. This is not an insult, it is an observation.

I hope I am wrong and I implore you to prove me wrong by making use of the time you are given, or give it up to someone who has an agenda (not MJW either, I am not in that at the present time and they have already been given another meeting, I mean someone who actually believes in something other than death to MJW)

Just don't ruin something that others could make good use of (meeting with Philip to discuss tangible concerns and concepts)
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Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
09-03-2005 21:38
From: Mulch Ennui
I wish you luck going in with a bunch of unorganized people not on the same page, with no agenda, with no game plan, with no requests, and no leadership, but please look at the reality of the position you have put yourself in.


The agenda is "people should come and talk about stuff that's bothering them."

The game plan is "people can say their peace of mind without having to filter through official channels."

The request is "please bring your issues to the discussion."

The leadership is me, although I'm not going to run with it like the esteemed members of the MJW have done, much to their detriment.


From: someone

I would bet that despite the NDA and "tourist" controversy, the MJW groups meeting will be seen as a more productive and better organized affair if you follow these guidelines you have proposed in terms of structure and content.


The MJW meetings have been, basically, elitists attempting to shout down legitimate questions with "if you dont' like it, form your own group and leave". That's intolerable, smug, and insulting. I'm not going to stand around while a bunch of self-appointed people play politics while people with real discussion topics sit without a proper forum to bounce ideas off of.

From: someone

If you don't see the risk to your own justification by not attending,


I'll be at the Sunday one, which is the important one. The meeting later in the week I may be able to attend (sorry, college is more important than SL), but it's dependent on when Phil and Robin are free. The secondary meeting is the fruits of the first meetings' labor anyhow; it's a regurgitation of what was brought up in the previous meeting, mixed in with a proper Linden response and discussion. My existence there would be non-beneficial, indeed unnecessary.


From: someone

inviting everyone, not having a spokesperson present a unified front,


Everyone is invited because I want to see true plurality in the issues presented, not those of disconnected political power-brokers.
I am the spokesperson, and unless I'm suddenly seen to be suffering from multiple personality disorder, should be providing a fairly non-biased, objective front to the proceedings.

From: someone

and not setting a game plan before not going in,


The game plan is thus:

1) People arrive with problems and ideas about SL.
2) A discussion is held.
3) I post the log online.
4) I collate and organize the main points in the discussion and fire htem off to Robin and Phil.
5) We have a meeting later in the week with the Lindens responding to the grievances brought forth by the interested parties.
6) WE rinse and repeat (hopefully) next week.

From: someone

then I think your lack of foresight has doomed your group from it's start, and even more dangerously, risks jeopardizing the platform Philip gave to those of us willing to put the time in to organize at least some reason for existing (besides being anti Justice League).


The reason is that the current way of doing things (an infighting political action group that can't seem to get anything done in an efficient or straightforward manner) is grossly ridiculous for a virtual world that's roughly the size of a medium city. It's about time the residents of this world started to come together on their own accord to hash out ideas and grievances they have without having to resort to the neglected forums, blogs, or other ways of non-world communication.

I am not jeopardizing anything. Philip loves to talk to residents; have you ever tried it? When he logs in he usually wanders around until he finds something interesting. The last time I saw him in-world, he was playing a game (I think it was Settlers of Second Life) while chatting with residents on everything. He loves talking, and giving the residents another avenue of communication while giving him a concentrated pool of interested parties is a Good Thing (tm).


From: someone

My experience in real life shows this simply will not work, except as possibly a feel good party for those attending.


Fortunately, Second Life is unlike Real Life in so many instances that it's not a good measuring stick for any potential successes or failures.

It's an experiment. It's untested, yes. but SL is all about experimentation, about change. About communication.

From: someone

If you waste Philips time with no agenda and everyone talking at once, he may very well feel he has opened himself to a tremendous waste of time, which no productive CEO can afford to do.


If you ask me, people are wasting his time with very narrow, self-serving agendas that don't specifically represent the will of the majority of SL.

From: someone

I appeal to you to make a game plan if indeed you have been offered a meeting. To not do that is jeopardizing the gift of the venue that Philip has offered.


See above.

From: someone

I hope you took this more seriously than a forum for taking cheap shots at other groups,


You underestimate me, truly.

From: someone

but honestly, nothing in your agenda seems productive and might be very destructive in the over all concept. This is not an insult, it is an observation.


Fair enough, but in my observation, it's wrong. :)


From: someone

I hope I am wrong and I implore you to prove me wrong by making use of the time you are given, or give it up to someone who has an agenda (not MJW either, I am not in that at the present time and they have already been given another meeting, I mean someone who actually believes in something other than death to MJW)


I believe in a better way to communicate between Lindens and residents. Why do we need a political agenda to achieve that goal?

I saw the current ideas, didn't like it, and came up with my own solution. Sorry my square block didn't fit into your round hole.

From: someone

Just don't ruin something that others could make good use of (meeting with Philip to discuss tangible concerns and concepts)


This is not a suicidal political message. This is a legit communications opportunity.

I hope to see you there.

LF
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