Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional in Kalifornia

great!

addendum: I forgot to mention that there was a 4th plantive in this case in the town where I live. The family's anominity was broken, and they receieved so many threatening calls and jeers at school that the family dropped out of the case and moved to another town.

Hurrah for tolerence.

Good. (* EDIT: not good about Taco's addendum, good about more separation of church and state)

However, if this thing goes too far, I'll have philosophical objections about "God" being removed from the currency of a capitalist nation.

Surely that has to be the next step. Matter of fact I think I'll plaintiff that landmark case

You do realize that "In God we Trust" was not added to our national currency until the 1950's or thereabouts, right? Before that it was "E Pluribus Unim" which means "a united public" or something along those lines.

And that "... one nation, UNDER GOD, with liberty and justice..." was not added to the pledge of allegiance until the 1950s or thereabouts, right? (The "under God" part). It used to be "...one nation, UNITED, with liberty and justice..."

And finally, that Thomas Jefferson and many of the other founding fathers who drafted this nation's constitution were *very* anti-organized religion and several of them wrote entire essays that railed against Christianity as a religion, and railed against any church involvement in governmental affairs, right?

You do know this, right?

Just doing my part to overcome a hell of a lot of paid propaganda by both church *and* state in the U.S. since the 1950s to fool the populace into believing that the U.S. is somehow a so-called "Christian nation". Things couldn't be further from the truth. All this stupid "in God we trust" crap came about because of the cold war, and the Communist scare. Our policy makers and propagandists had to paint the reds as evil and different from us, so that we could demonize them and rationalize fun (and profitable things) like military spending, little wars in Korea and Vietnam, putting the squeeze on Cuba, etc.

Why? Because communism and socialism are threats to capitalism. Old money, big money, and corporations can't rake in enough profits in those environments.

Do a little digging and see for yourself if you have trouble believing this.

Yes I DO realize that why do you think I made this thread?

I think it should stay on our money. It's the only place it is appropriate.

Better yet, WWBBD?

BB? King?

Brian Boitano

What would Airwolf do?

Buy my land ! /invalid_link.html

Okay I know this is just some joke I dont get, but I'll bite...

Why would the central icon of evil godless capitalism (the US buck), need to have a reference to God on it?
Isn't that kind of like writing "Jesus Saves" on Adolf Hitler's butt?

Money is the God of our society. We're united by it, driven by it, kill and die by it. It's what the collection plate is for. When there's a tragedy, we pray to God but ask for money.

Why am I giving a serious answer to this question? I need more coffee, dammit.

Hey! not all of us worship money!


Oh and "E Pluribus Unum" translates as "Out of Many, One" and still appears on US coins

All great points, Fush. I find it absolutely amazing how many people seem to think such frivolus things as the pledge, what's written on our money, etc., that were only added to our national culture fairly recently, are some sort of sacred historical holy ground that cannot ever be treaded upon. How frightfully ignorant our population is, we should be ashamed.

Anyhow, just for acuaracy sake, "E Pluribus Unum" literally means "From Many, One." "One United Public," certainly follows in the same spirit, but it's not quite as complete. The idea was that we are one nation, composed of many different peoples, cultures, beliefs, etc., and that all those "many" put together constitute the "one" America. Unfortunately, there are (and always have been) those who believe that they alone are the "one" and that their country has somehow become infested with the undersirable "many". These kinds of people have managed to accumulate a massive amount of power in recent years, and our nation is fundamentally changing as a result, and not for the better. Those of us who believe in tolerance and in the ideals for which our constitution stands are now dismissed as cooks and whackos. This is by far the scariest period in American history. It could well take centuries to undo the damage that's been done by these people if it's even still possible.

That's right, most of us also worship TV.

Wha?? I don't have a massive amount of power. ::Hides fasces in the closet.::

Try dead cats!

I think it's too late to enter NO without government permission.

Will dogs work? ::Thinks back to previous thread::

As opposed to the government, which is the God if you're not in "our society"...

Well, here's my take:

This reasoning is why there was a push to differentiate us from the "Communists" years ago. They were the enemy (for reasons we won't discuss), and the government was their God. In other words, other men were their God, and thus rights are given to men/women only by the whim of those other men. If basic human rights are given to you by humans, they can be taken away just as easily by humans. As opposed to the idea that you have certain basic human rights by default granted by a "higher power". If they're granted by a higher power, they can't be taken away by other mere humans.

(Please no lectures like "they weren't real communists" btw.)

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

It's interesting that men are "created" equal and that Creator is with a capital C. I don't know how that language snuck in there if the founders were so "God hating", I think what they really didn't like was a government making the decisions for you.

Love it or hate it, I think that was the reasoning behind such thinking at the time. As of now, I couldn't care less if the words are there or not. I'm almost leaning towards removing them just to shut up all the whiners who freak out every single time the see or hear the G word. Freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion afterall. "But it means the government supports and is forcing a specific religion on you!" seems to me a weak argument. If anyone thinks that's the government delegating religious beliefs, they should think a little more about how a government could really enforce religious belief, the past has plenty of examples.

Oh: For those of you who don't already know... no, I don't go to church...not even once a year...

And I still don't know why it's not okay to just say the damn pledge, and if it causes you internal bleeding to say the word, simply skip the "under God" part and go on with life. Stopping the pledge entirely as a side-effect of this is simply assinine. Killing a tradition simply because you don't want your kid to hear a word that you think will influence them in some way?

If he's trying to "shelter" his kid(s) from religion of any kind, in an attempt to "mold" them into exactly what he wants (so much for basic human rights, I guess letting your kids think for themselves isn't one of them?), good luck to him. He'll need it, since religion is everywhere you look, in every corner of the world.

Ok I'm done. That was a pure waste of time wasn't it.