Questions Re: Creation Theft in Second Life

If you implement such a database, particularly if it can be used to blacklist shitheads, send me an IM. I have a name to go into it and proof of why it belongs there.

A better implementation would be to have a database of positive experiences or references to go to a certain shop or deal with a certain vendor. Rating scale of 1 to 10 stars, and every reference has to be validated to a unique SL account name/key. You'd still get alt pumping (use of alts to unfairly inflate responses), but if you make it so a name/key may only comment once per listed business, it would likely balance.

Blacklisting only brings trouble. I have never seen it do otherwise. On the other hand Whitelisting creates an intangible blacklist by default. If the only person saying something good about a shop is the owner.... (grin)

Anyway, 'long as we're tossing around ideas, that's mine.

Blacklisting might be OK if the person running the list requires proof, and shares it openly with any who ask. The accused individual should also have a way of responding that is also shared.

The reason negative ratings are gamed is that anyone can do them with no reason at all. A blacklist requiring proof would be far more useful.

With being a retailer, as much as I'd love to get my little hands on a list like this, don't you think a list like this would basically turn into a he said/she said list, filled with some truth but mostly discepancies, heresay and bold face lies? At the risk of sounding cynical...

*sniff sniff* I smell trouble!

My point being that a whitelist is less open to malicious abuse. The worst you get with it is that someone has their friends inflate their good rating. But even then, they had to have a good rating to inflate.

The problem with blacklisting lies in the ease with which any such system may be manipulated with relative impunity.

I've thought about it.

It's essentially exactly what TRW, Experian, etc. do with credit ratings. They tell sellers, in advance, which customers are going to take their goods or services and not pay for them.

I've had experience avoiding defamation issues while saying true negative things about people who really needed to have them said to warn others.

One of the reasons for an IP registry would be so that someone accused of IP theft could contest the claim by either demonstrating that the item was public domain at an earlier data *or* that they had it created before the other guy had it listed. Complaints of IP theft would require that a Chamber member say which registered piece of IP was stolen for resale, and where it was being sold (landmark) so the theft could be verified. A database field would be in the system whereby someone accused would be able to put, in X words or less, their version of what happened.

The "I banned so-and-so from my store" would be openly stated as simply the opinion of the vendor about the desireability of that customer, again the customer would be able to post their side of it in a field any Chamber member willing to listen could access freely.

Additionally, the accused would not only have the right to appeal or tell their side--contesting a potentially untrue item, they would also be able to potentially negotiate restitution with the original complainant to see if the complainant would be willing to remove a true negative report from the system. So if you thought something was public domain when it wasn't and the theft was inadvertent, there's a mechanism for the vendor to let you off the hook. If a malefactor only had the stolen item up for a little while and had limited sales, and the vendor wanted to accept restitution, then just like a creditor can pull a negative report off your credit rating if you negotiate a mutually agreeable solution with them, a misbehaving customer could do the same thing.

Essentially, I'd be copying the models of the credit bureaus.

I'd also, of course, have to maintain a database of public domain items, the registry of which would be free--both pre-existing public domain items, and items whose creators were deliberately entering them into the public domain, so that new registrations of IP could be checked against the database. It would be a successful defense for an accused to assert that my automatic checking routines had missed that a registered item was in fact pre-existing in the public domain database (maybe the difference between the registered item and the pre-existing PD item would be so small as to be trivial).

I'm a moderator on another largish forum, I have experience arbiting complaints. I also have experience writing and integrating web front ends with database back ends, and writing and administering the database back ends, and separating opinion and true negative information from defamation. I have a pretty good idea of the amount of labor that would be involved on my part, how to do this, and the safeguards that would need to be in place to do it fairly. My RL skills just happen to have a pretty good overlap with the project requirements or I wouldn't even be considering investing my time in this.

Also, I already have most of the pieces in place that would constitute overhead anyway. The only additional cost would be the time required to build and administer the product.

All that remains, since LL TOS and community standards at first blush don't seem to be a problem, is to determine if the demand is worth the time.

Credit bureau "blacklists" do more good than harm. They mean more goods and services are available to honest customers on better terms than would be the case if they didn't exist. They have a downside and really suck for people who don't pay their bills, but they do fulfill a legitimate role in the economy.

I'm sensitive to the potential for abuse, but I don't think it would be insurmountable or even particularly difficult to surmount.

Accept as a hypothetical given that I'm competent to do this. What's the demand? And for the people who would hypothetically buy it, what would it be worth to you to be able to list your IP in a registry (for a small fee) and subscribe to such a reporting service to check the list for people you haven't already banned who have a credit score exceeding a certain level of negativity, chosen by you--again, for a small monthly fee.

I wouldn't have to charge a large fee because I know about what kind of administration time I'd have to spend per unit volume of my customers. It wouldn't be a time hog unless I had the volume to be worth it, for boring technical reasons. The fee for registration would be about L$100--which is about $0.35, the approximate cost of a 35 cent stamp to mail a copy of your IP to yourself. And you don't have to keep track of the envelope for yourself, so it's actually a bargain.

Two levels of accounts. Free monthly accounts to check your own credit rating, or pay the small fee on a per-item basis for registration. Subscription accounts with the monthly fee and the pay-per-registered item to get the list of who you might choose to ban, and to get the power to list someone. The latter would be for a very small fee--I'm thinking about $L5. I also have a RL psych degree. People are less likely to lie about someone if they actually have to pay even a small amount to do it than if it's free, but you don't need to charge enough to be a barrier to vendors making legitimate listings.

And, of course, the bonus is that by recording substantiated IP thefts, vendors could use multiple instances as a basis for complaint to LL to try to get a user's account deleted for violation of TOS. Which would help the whole vendor community, subscribers and non-subscribers both.

If you would subscribe, what monthly fee would it be worth to you?

Look, people can already, without violating TOS I'm told, sue SL users in RL for theft of their IP as sold in SL. Supposed anonymity is no barrier as it would be trivial to get a court to issue a subpeona to LL to cough up the RL email address of the user, and to the ISP to cough up the info that would lead back to the RL name of the alleged thief. The kicker is the filing fee for small claims court--iirc, more than US$50, less than US$100, and you have to figure out which court has jurisdiction. Theft of IP in SL is actionable in RL, it's just a PITA. My proposed service would not confer any additional rights on IP holders--those rights already exist in RL. It would just provide an intermediate remedy short of suing.

And, of course, it's not defamation to say you have a cause of action, in your opinion, against someone for IP theft if that truly is your opinion. It's not defamation to say that there is some evidence substantiating your potential cause of action if there really is. Which is exactly what this would amount to.

The service would offer an intermediate remedy, short of lawsuits, which would allow a vendor to protect their IP somewhat without causing legal hassle to LL or breaching the treasured anonymity of residents.

Julie

If you are interested in such a service, please discuss it with your designer and vendor friends and have them either post or contact me if they think the service is something they would use. If there is enough demand, I'll probably do it.

Julie

I would have pulled out her hair prim by prim.

I would have done the same thing... and I have . Its a compliment that somone copies your things .,. but its also a slap in the face.

See how that works? It allows both parties to have a voice in the matter. The service this would provide would outweigh, in my opinion, the problem of people shitting up the database with false accusations.

LL would probably not use your database as the basis of any kind of disciplinary action. They want a paper trail on their end. However, I like the rest of your post.

Seems to me we're getting dangerously close to people wanting to be able to patent their SL creations. That will put a big halt to a lot of the creativity in SL as so many items resemble eachother and anyone could claim patent infringement. This continued arguement is silly...change your land settings to not allow someone to rez objects on your land and problem solved! Whether someone is able to create a knock-off of your creations shouldn't matter so much because as long as you have a good reputation for quality products, quality textures, quality poses, quality service, and quality personability, you will find your business will continue to thrive. Worry if the store next door to yours starts selling knock-offs for a lower price.

I agree with Cienna. A very good example of blacklisting gone awry is the Land Renter's Petition. Maybe if there was a survey customers could fill out once a month or so, where they can rate on a scale from 1-10 the quality of a product, customer service, etc. If they had to talk directly with the owner, rate or comment on that experience, that's even better.

Anyhoo, back on topic, I sympathize. Your furniture is always lovely.

Closer than you may think. But even with a patent, neither pursuing nor defending a case of infringement is a casual affair.

1. patents: people talk about patents, but the time and expense of generating a patent will keep most of this talk. Plus the expense of trying to protect a patent would be a further deterrant.

2. I agree with you that in most cases in SL patents would be silly

3. I don't agree that setting the land to no-rez is such a simple solution... what if you sell in boxes and someone wants to rez to collect their goods? What if someone wants to see the product they just got? No rez seems like a simple solution but the actual implementation can get messy with customer perception implications

So many issues in SL come down to a basic lack of respect for each other, and the mistaken belief that just because you can do something means that you should. I can think of so many situations that have come up that can be narrowed down to simple lack of respect. It amazes me sometimes how difficult of a concept that is for some people to grasp. They will go to great lengths to make justifications for bad behavior, but in the end, there are none. Taeja reacted exactly as I would have, including bringing the issue up in the discrete way that she has (though someone else has turned the thread into a launch pad to promote their service).

She puts an inordinate amount of time into her work - individual furniture pieces often take days or even weeks for her to develop. That is why having someone show complete disregard for her work is such a big deal, and it should be. Sadly, respect is becoming less and less common as SL grows and is promoted non-stop as a way to make money. Ultimately, we can only individually do what we can to stop it when this type of stuff comes up - because it will come up again, over and over. I still spend way too much time tracking down people selling copies of my stuff, so I can relate (though in my case they got copies through exploits/bugs). Seller beware, I suppose.

in response to #3, I know that is why many stores allow rezzing...however I've seen a great many that do not allow for rezzing. If you want to set it to no rez, make it so that when the person purchases the object they get a folder in their inventory rather than a box. Much more convenient for the purchaser also! (not sure how to do this personally, but I love the ones who do)

I don't think it is a difficult concept, but I do think fewer people are willing to give as much respect as they seem to demand.

Caveat Emptor is wisdom.

I hear ya on this but unfortunatley it's not much different than RL. How can people who don't learn the concept of respect in RL be expected to show it in SL? This could put me off onto a whole other topic about people's upbringing. In my line of work I see a lot of very disrespectful children who's parents encourage their behavior because either it's how they were brought up or because the teacher must be lying and picking on their perfect children.

I suppose the best we can do is take precautions against people when we catch them, protect our land with the tools avaliable (see above) and not take it too personally when it happens and keep doing our best to provide the best service possible. In RL I regularly pay more for clothing from a store that has provided me with excellent service, that has great exchange/refund policies, and that has quality items, rather than getting a great deal at a store just to get it home, shrink like crazy on the cold cycle and not be able to exchange it. I'll gladly pay for great service when I can afford to.

[x] Set contents for sale

It should be made impossible to read object positions in link sets that are no-modify. Number copying someone's couch is bullshit.

I hate to break this to you but there are quite a few people in SL who have not stolen a single idea. Not a single item in my own sales inventory is based on or copied from the works of others. In fact, on those times where I've seen an exceptionally unique item, I've made a point of contacting the creator and made sure to ask permission to use their creation.

Sometimes that backfires and the creator will reneg on their end of the deal, but unfortunately sometimes you dont find out they're not trustworthy until it's too late. I'd rather take that risk that steal the idea outright.




I've caught a few people doing the same with some of my furniture before. Generally I've sat down and helped them with the dimensions. Then as part of course of the conversation, I ask them to put their own spin and unique touch to their work, so as not to come across as a sleazy rip-off of my own stuff. It's been my experience so far that most do catch the subtle point there and try to keep their own work unique.


- Newfie

I don't think making a blacklist or a claims court for IP theft is going to be a very good thing. People will be falsely accused and be unable to back up their claims and their SL experience will be ruined. LL won't want this either and before long you'll be asked to take your project offline because it promotes defamation of people LL makes money off of, and that costs them money.

In Ultima Online there was a very rich trader community. Auction sites were par for the course, and the best ones worked just like ebay. One account, and you're stuck with it. People can positive rate you or negative rate you. YES this is open to abuse but if you're honest, a trustworthy salesmen, then the 5-10 neg ratings out of the 100 positive ratings you'd rack up would show those 5-10 are probably from the percentage of people who defame for defamations sake. After all, if they were so maltreated, where did all these other HAPPY customers come from?

A system like that is far less final, far less likely to utterly ruin someone's SL experience "by accident", and far less likely to get LL on your back about costing them money. A simple black and white list of "who goes and who doesn't" is far too final for any small human community to ever fairly maintain. While I'd say a system to rate people is fine, I am personally against the blacklist and dispution system since things go wrong and good people can have their SL ruined. It's too final, and I hope it won't take off in that form.

My 5 Lcents.

Well, there doesn't seem to be the demand for it anyway. Not enough to be worth my time.

However, you should be aware that the RL copyright rules don't just go away because it's done in SL. Personally, I loathe the RIAA, but I've noticed several vendors sell links to videos and recordings of commercial recording-company stuff. I think it's only a matter of time before those vendors *do* get a RL lawsuit. When it happens, it won't have anything to do with me, and I certainly wish it wouldn't happen.

But wishful thinking won't make the RL IP laws not apply just because a far more advanced descendant of the MUDs *feels* so much more like a SL. SL is still a subset of RL, and no matter how much people (including me) cherish the illusion of anonymity, it is just that.

Nobody is going to sue over a texture or a couch or a lamp or a cool t-shirt. Not unless you put Mickey Mouse on it. LOL

It all comes down to whether IP theft in SL is an occasional obnoxious rudeness or a serious economic problem. From the rest of the thread, it sounds a lot like the former.