Questions Re: Creation Theft in Second Life

I was hesitant about bringing these issues that I have to the forums, but I'd like to handle this situation in the most decent and fair way as possible. So listen up if you will and give your honest opinions here.

Yesterday afternoon, a friend and I were hanging out a few meters away from a furniture store that I have in Kelham. People were coming and going, but this one particular customer lingered behind for awhile...checking out one couch in particular, sitting on it, testing poses, which is fairly normal. But then, my friend and I watched in horror as she began to take out prims that somewhat matched the shape of the piece that I created, lining up prims to the base of the couch, making an arm to the couch that looked very similar to my piece. Of course I went to investigate and didn't expect the best.

In the meantime, my firend IMed her, asking her what she was doing and she quickly picked the pieces up and put them back into her inventory so that by the time I got there, they were gone and she was sitting on the couch. I asked her if she needed any help and she said she was just looking. Then I explained to her what my friend and I had just seen and she became a little angry, defensive and indignant. She said that she was new to the game, only two days old in fact and was trying to build a couch of her own and came to my store to get the 'dimensions' of my piece to help her along with her project. She went on to say that she had no idea that she was doing anything wrong and didn't see what the big deal was..that she wasn't stealing and just wanted the dimensions.

Now here's where the problem comes in. How many of us have met people that claim they are newbies to the game but clearly are not by their actions and even sometimes their appearance? This particular person could have been a newbie, but the pieces that she created within a matter of quick seconds indicated that she definitely wasn't a beginner in the world of SL building. Seriously, there is no way a newbie of two days could build that way. Basically I made the decision not to trust her. With all of the creation theft in SL lately, one cannot be so quick to trust players when they try to give what they feel are legitimate reasons for their actions. Better to be safe than sorry is my theory. So to make a long story short, I banned her from my stores and my friend and I both negative rated her. We negative rated her not only because of her actions, but because of her attitude in regards to feeling as if she did nothing wrong in that situation. Negative ratings will all be pointless in a few weeks, yes, I know that already. It was based mainly on the whole principle of the thing.

The result of all of this? The player (who will not be mentioned because this is a No Drama Zone! - yeah right ) has apologized in her profile yet insinuates that I am harrassing her. My question to all of you is, what would you personally do in a situation such as this?

And on a side note, I personally think that LL should come up with some sort of consequences for people where it has been proven that they have stolen the designs and creations of others. If there is one, please let me know!

Anyhow, thanks for listening

A great feature would be to not be able to read the dimensions of non modifiable prims, or perhaps have it as a seperate feature all together.

I hate to break this to you but everyone in SL has stolen an idea or two at one point or another. I have clothes in my store that I have seen in other's stores and it doesn't bother me one bit. I know that my customer service is exceptional and that I have quality products. In a world like this you are going to see other players with designs similar to what you have designed. It may have been that this person was just doing what she said and getting the dimensions to your couch. I mean, you don't own the rights to the design of couches everywhere. I'm pretty sure your couch is very similar to others being sold around the grid.

Perhaps this person was new to SL but not new to designing in 3D and just wanted to get an idea of what to do. I think what you did to her/him was extreme and starting a problem like that is only going to look bad on your business than good.

Remember, imitation is the highest form of flattery and I think you should have handled that differently.

I often give people new to Poser advice and help. I even go as far sometimes as to email them an example .pz file to learn from.

I understand your views, but really she didnt do anything wrong. In SL no one can claim to own a prim shape. Tacky? Yes. Illegal? No.

Geez people if your gonna rip off someones design, at least buy the object and do it on your own property.

As a builder, you already know that the most closely-guarded secrets in SL are NOT so much dimensions as they are textures. Sure, you can buy lots of textures in the world but the truly dazzling stuff I see in furniture and clothing stores have textures that are either created from scratch or scanned from sources the creator isn't about to share.

If I go to a Lexus dealer and use a measuring tape on one of their new cars, I'm not sure that the salesmen would care much. I might be able to fashion something that *looks* like a Lexus, but it won't be a Lexus after it's done.

I can't blame you for banning this person, but merchants should probably just accept the fact that there are twits running around with no imagination and no morals who are going to try to steal your stuff. Your response (other than prosecuting egregious violations) should be to add so much originality that nobody can duplicate it. If they try, they'll be the K-Mart to your Thomasville.

What you are saying about people stealing ideas in SL is very much true..however that doesn't make it right. I honestly could not quietly sit by and watch someone take a design directly from my store to make their own. This isn't the first time that this has happened to me and I'm sure it won't be the last, however, if you knew someone was in your store, not to purchase something, but to copy your designs and make their own items, would you stand by and allow them to continue to do it? I don't think anyone in my situation would which is why I handled it in the way in which I did. And to be pefectly honest, the problem didn't start with me confronting this person and asking them to leave. The problem started when they stood in my store and tried copying my piece for all to see.

I am more than a reasonable person, but I also try to protect my creations if possible. I honestly don't think someone will hold me or anyone else accountable in trying to do so.

Thank you for your opinion though

OMG thank you for bringing this point out.

I am not a person that believes that my couches are the only ones like them in SL. In fact, most of my furniture is already modifiable because I know how it is to buy something and not be able to change certain things on it to fit your taste perfectly. If you want to copy the design there's nothing I can do about that. But don't blatently stand in my store and do it out in the open where I and everyone else can see you. Have a little dignity please.

Sheesh this is a tough one. So many people make so many similar things.

I myself have taken a look at some nice items once or twice, by just visually sizing the item up, so I could get a feel for how it was done. This was right after I had learned how to make prims. I didn't match any prims up, I was just kinda 'hmmmm I wonder how they got this or that effect'. Both times didn't really have a clue how they had done it. Still don't. A couple times I have seen items in world and thought gee that's neat maybe I could make that.

I had a hell of a time making a choker once so used one I had bought as a template to make one. Chains on jewelry baffle me and I've considered buying one to figure it out.

So I don't think there's a darn thing to be done. Is it wrong? Well to be blunt, if I were going to copy anothers work....which I have no plans on doing, I just wanna figure stuff out, I CERTAINLY wouldn't do it in the middle of the creators store hehe. I don't think it's unreasonable for U to be pissed about it, hell neg rate for stupidity at the very least, which in all honesty MAY indicate the person was a noob. But as Hiro said a feature where U CAN'T get the dimensions of another persons object would be great.

This I agree with. I think it's very rude to be standing in someone's store and copying something like that. What I'm saying is that now her and everyone she meets and looks at her profile will know the drama and that's bad advertisement not good advertisement. However, it is advertisement nonetheless. Of course you can tell everyone your side of the story if they ask.

This is a crappy situation to be in and I feel for you as a fellow retailer. I hope things work out ok.

I understand your concern and I'll make the short answer first. Such is the way of SL and there is little that you can do to prevent it, technically, procedurally, or otherwise. You give your customers good measure, have made a name for yourself and that is better than any knock-off maker will likely be able to do.

Now comes the longer bit. It seems that you are desirous of design patents in SL. Not only would they be immersurably difficult to codify, secure, and enforce, they would also bring untold conflict. Think of it this way, the person trying to duplicate your work, could have relatively easily purchased the items, gone to a far corner of the world and done their best to duplicate it. I'm guessing that your concern is how that would affect your sales; I'm guessing that it wouldn't in any meaningful way. Why? Because an item purchased from you has a backing that few in the world could provide. If I ever had cause to need service, customization, etc. I'd know where to go and know that you'd be there.

Knock-offs are certainly present in the real world, and there is a level of consumer that is happy with a $10 fake Vuitton bag bought on the street from a vendor who won't be there in an hour. That consumer would likely never buy the real article and so in some sense, has not stolen market from Louis.

I'd take a lesson from Cubey in this department. It is true that his creations have more protections built-in to SL because they are scripted. Anyone can build aircraft in principle, but I'd never go anywhere but Cubey for one. He's even recently offered a course in teaching people how to make flying things. His designs also have - often subtly but clearly - his maker's mark on them. Not only does this give a minor bit of advertising, it also helps people recall where they obtained the article in the first place when someone asks or when they seek more of the same. I've not seen anyone try to forge Cubey's mark, but I imagine that it would be pretty compelling case to the Lindens if someone were to. Do note the Lindens seem to be trying to get out of the enforcement biz, but would have to honor a copyright violation claim.

I hope that helped some; if you read it as trying to belittle your concern, I failed to express myself correctly.

One time I was on Gypsy Moon (before I leveled it,) and a woman showed up and began taking pictures of the textures i used in my build. These textures were all made by me in photoshop and made into collages for use in the walls and decor of my build. Some were for sale and most were not.

She didnt hide what she was doing, in fact she complained about the quality of the SL pictures and began using screen shots. I really didnt know what to tell her except to say that if she could not use or sell my original art collage texures without my permission.

Another time a newer member approached me to ask me to recreate by build on his land. I declined because thats not something I do. Soon after he sent two other members to my sim to look at my build so they could copy it for them. He hired them to copy the build becasue I would not build it for him. Both members were long time residents one of whom I had met in SL on several occasions.

They didnt hide the fact that they were hired to copy my build, and when I told them they should not copy my original collage textures etc without my permission they became so damn nasty and defensive. They informed me that the fact that I had it out on display and in use in my build meant they could copy it since I "didnt own the colors" or some stupid remark like that.

This boils down to the same question that arises in so many aspects of SL..is it ok to copy someone else work to sell as your own without permission? It was easy for me to say sure why not until it was my own original artwork being lifted.

I dont know what the answer is but I can certainly identify with the problem.

Ok, I'll probably get flamed for this, but in a virtual world where we are all encouraged to create content, having our $L sources removed left and right, and where basic users pretty much have no choice but to either save for months to furnish a house on land they are renting or buy $L, I don't see what the big deal is with someone building their own version of someone else's creation. People do it all the time in RL. Someone see's a house add on they like or a bathroom floor they like and instead of contracting someone to do it, because they can't afford it, they do it themselves. I agree it's definitely tacky to do this in the store right in front of the owner and shows a great lack of common sense, but my guess is that you'll probably see more and more of this as $L become more and more scarce because of source cuts. Unless she has the texture you used chances are it will be a pale immitation of your creation. If it's for personal use, no problem...if someone's trying to sell it for a profit then yeah that's pretty low.

A while back, a builder -- let's call her X -- copied almost every module in my Noir SkyLife building system. Shapes, module types, how they fit together -- apart from the textures, it was virtually identical to the one I'd spent weeks designing. When she began to sell hers beside mine on SL Exchange, I decided to let it go. It was annoying, definitely, but it wasn't the first time I'd had my stuff copied.

Not log after that, X's associate, Y, contacted me to demand why *I* had copied her. Even in the face of the obvious fact that I had started selling mine about a month before X did, Y still insisted that I had ripped off X. In the end, X's stuff disappeared from SL Exchange, although I don't know why.

For personal use, copying is probably fine, in my opinion. But taking someone else's design and then selling is wrong (m'kay). But there are enough out there who are too lazy to do their own design work, and so few protections for designers, that I think the problem won't go away.

You know...from what I've heard here today is technically yes, it is okay. But really, is it morally okay? A lot of you know how difficult it is to come up with designs and textures for something that you're building and the pride that you take in creating something that ultimately is your own. It can truly enrage a person when you walk into a store and see a knock off of something that you've put your blood sweat and tears into to create.

Ultimately this is a game..or a -virtual- community as some would like to call it. In the larger scheme of things, does it really matter? Sadly, I guess not. It's basically the principle of the thing I suppose.

Its understandible to say imitation is the highest form of flattery... I have said it to many friends when there looks are being copied and they get upset. I just dont like the idea that someone has to go look at someone elses work to build something they want to sell. If you put the man hours in, modeled the shapes to flow well, and yes it resembles someone elses work that is forgiveable, but to go right to the store copy a piece and then make up some excuse that you just need dimensions and your not copying it is very disrespectful. I remember once reading about a guy who cut out the word sample on a designers hair textures and then sold them as there own. Being broke is no excuse for theft of anothers creations.

Hi Taeja
I kind of agree with everyone here about this, (that it's technicaly not illegal but morally bankrupt of the person to do it in your store, and to lie about it when caught).

Also I think you did the right thing in banning them, what else *can* you do anyway?

I have a few points to add that no one has mentioned yet.

One is I feel that you have to be a fairly advanced player to know this is even possible most of the time, (I am five months old and I only realised it was possible a couple of weeks ago), so your "protection" is that by the time peole realise this can be done, hopefully they have been socialised a bit and will at least feel bad enough doing it to purchase your item before they copy it.

The Second point is that you cant copy *all* the settings. Most of the simple prims shapes have all the sizes and stuff showing, but most of the tricky stuff with tori and so forth you cant get all the measurments out anyway, so there is a little protection there as well.

Finally, as others have said, the texture and the scripting and whatever animations etc. have been added is really the key, and all of that stuff is impossible to steal (barring server exploits ), unless the textures are all flat on a wall or something. It also takes a steady hand and a keen eye to rip of textures in that way and the result is always of lesser quality.

I hope some of that helps to allay your fears a bit.

I am glad that you neg-rated them, they deserve it for the lying and the subterfuge. Sadly this person will appear to be squeaky clean once the neg rates are removed and that just isn't right.

It should at least be made more difficult for people to make exact replicas of objects they don't own. That way, the person would at least have to buy it to rip it off. People have complained about thsi on several occasions, but there's really not much that can be done about it (as is the case in RL).

Just assume/accept it's going to happen, do whatever you can to protect yourself (banning at least slows them down), and try to take it as a compliment that someone likes your work so much, they're willing to risk looking like a complete ass by copying it.

And this, my friends, is why you add a rotation script to anything that you're displaying... Because anyone who's tried to make a copy of a spinning object knows it just doesn't work.

If someone sees a sofa or vehicle design they appreciate but can't afford to buy it, nothing stops them from building their own version for themselves as long as they don't try to sell it and claim it as an original idea. The grey area on this is that "sofas" as a general category are not original. A super-duper modernistic sofa with cool pose scripts and particle effects, on the other hand, is obviously original and should never be ripped off and resold.

That said, I would remind you that there are several places which offer prefab homes for $1L, tons of furniture and textures for next to nothing. There is no reason that a new subscriber can't at least put together a basic, furnished home for a very small amount of money. No, it won't be "designer" quality but if you want that, either learn to build it yourself or get the $L to buy it.

IMHO, this is no different than going into Wal-Mart and seeing shoes, jeans, purses, watches, or other items that clearly are NOT designer items but obviously made to closely resemble them... however, I do think that for this person to have stood in your store and created the prims in full view of the world was pretty rotten. OTOH, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

As far as shooting pictures of textures is concerned, however, I completely agree that that is beyond any reasonable expectation. I wish there was a way to prevent it.

P2

I have 2 responses now to this after reading everyone else's post.

1) If the person's ultimate goal was to copy and sell then they should be banned from the property for obvious reasons.

2) If they were copying you because they have 0L and cannot buy anything that's a different story.

See it's very hard to determine what someone's true motives are if you aren't there to witness it, and even if you are sometimes things don't look like they seem. Second Life has turned into profitable enterprise for some people in this game and some users (who will remain unnammed) wouldn't be so nice as to just ban someone and neg rate them. So really you have to determine how detrimental it was to your business and handle it in any way you deem appropriate. Which you did.

Would I have handled it the same way? Yes if they were planning to sell and in my store copying instead of privately copying.

No, if they were doing it just to have furniture.

I don't condone this, but you have to have a certain admiration for someone with stones big enough to do what they did.

Well they could have just been incredibly stupid though, or just didn't know how to behave in this kind of universe.

I can understand frustration of someone copying your designs. I can see looking at a couch and getting an idea from it or something to make one of your own, maybe you can't afford to buy that one, etc. I don't think you should turn around and sell it though if you do copy an idea. I just got back into Second Life and hope to create some fashions so I hope things aren't TOO cutthroat lol. I've noticed some furniture places that have made the couches or similar items from other games like Sims 2. They had the same textures and everything and I didn't really think oh wow they stole that! I was kind of thinking it was neat to bring them into SL but borderline on what others might think. So would that be copying or just liking the furniture from another game and deciding to make furniture similar to it? This is a tough one I think lol.

But see the problem with your above comment is, you really don't know what someone's motives are, which is what you mentioned yourself. Even though it is virtual, I take my business very seriously here in SL and not just because of the money that can be obtained from it (you can tell that from my prices alone.) So I'm not going to give someone the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this. If they're bold enough to stand in the middle of my store and do this, there's no telling what else they'd do. So I say, when in doubt, KICK 'EM OUT!