Griefers? Damage enable your land perhaps.

LL has always hamstrung the defender. It's an issue they just don't seem to have any real ideas how to deal with. The tools they give you that you actually can use are woefully inadequate.

So, here's an option...damage enable your land. It clearly states that if you fly over land and see the heart symbol, be careful, you can be damaged and killed. That is a game mechanic and perfectly legit...you are allowed to damage enable your plot, which explicitly tells people, "YOU ARE IN DANGER AND ARE VULNERABLE HERE". I've always thought it should come with a little noise, but hey that's for LL to work out. But at least now you have options, and can maintain your physical object defenses to avoid getting shot yourself. However, your one-shot-one-kill tracking drones/bullets/whatever will prove quite effective, and you shouldn't get any repercussions (your bullets etc. can't damage people not on your land). Just don't use pushes on avatars. Because that's taboo. But their bullets and so on, that's fair game. A script to detect a moving physical object that, when it detects said object, pushes it to the sky and spawns a turret that attacks the griefer and one shots him is well within the confines of damage enabled land.

That'll turn the whole game into jesse? In my view, it pretty much is already there. Push guns and all the rest of it makes the difference between being killed by HP redux or by simply being blown off the grid pretty much moot. And this at least gives you the opportunity to shoot back.

I really can't think of any other way to enable you to defend yourself without getting banned (for shame LL). It would be very interesting to see if LL started banning people for killing avatars (which just sends you home) on damage enabled land.

No thanks. I shouldn't have to open up myself to MORE griefing to prevent griefing.

Plus, if my land is damage enabled, can I even fairly report people who grief me? Probably not with as much success.

I'd submit that reporting griefers is not effective. It certainly is not immediate...or nearly immediate...or often within the same week/month...

And if the owner sets up the defenses well, you can't be touched. Pushes are still illegal, but bullets are not, and scripting defenses against moving physical objects is a well known technique and perfectly legal. It's not that hard to set up a damage enabled plot where only the owner can kill somebody. It's not much harder than a push script.

Or, everybody can just keep bitching at LL, who in three years has really done nothing except up the bans for people that defend themselves.

Choice is yours I guess. Me, I'd rather have the option to shoot back without getting banned. And it seems like a lot of people would like that option. This is one possible way to get it. You just have to change the focus of your defense scripts from avatars to objects (and most people probably have object defenses anyway).

So they stand off my land and shoot at me, protected by the ToS this time as opposed to technicly being in violation of it like they are now.

That doesn't sound like much of an improvement.

I agree abuse reporting isn't great. But it does SOMETIMES work. So it's better than absolutely nothing, which is more or less what is left aftet turning one's land to damage-enabled.

Reit...

YOU CAN DEFEND EASILY AGAINST MOVING PHYSICAL OBJECTS ON YOUR LAND. NO MATTER WHERE THEY COME FROM.

PUSH SCRIPTS ARE STILL ILLEGAL.

And...if you had been around in the early days, you would know that shooting somebody on damage enabled land from off that plot is a breach of the rules. The shooter can be banned, it's happened in the past. Finding out who owns the bullet that shot you is just a matter of a little detection script.

And...so what? If you're shot on your land, you get a ride home. Which is probably your land.

In the vorago I can enable "my bullets", which means any other physical object created or entering my land winds up in the stratosphere. You can detect velocity, size, etc. to be selective.

Jeezus christ you just contradict for the sake of it don't you. You didn't even consider the possibility that this may work if the owner is creative about using it.

For people that want the option to shoot back or defend aggressively, this may work. You don't like the idea, fine. Don't use it. While it may be true you forfeit some of your rights to complain, it gives you the opportunity to take immediate control of the situation without getting banned. And that appears to be what people want.

Screw "sometimes works". In the meantime you suffer. Reports deter nobody. If a griefer knows that he can and will be shot dead every time he comes onto a plot of land, and he's powerless to do anything while on that land, and can easily still be reported for harassing you off that land, maybe it'll be less attractive. Right now though the griefer is virtually protected from resident retribution and that's just not fair at all.

Damage enable your land, and the game shifts away from the griefer and into the owner's control, because everybody on your land is now fair game, but the owner has a HUGE home field advantage that, exercised correclty, is pretty much complete.

It's not actually that easy, thanks A 'good' gun today is firing bullets faster than any script can hope to compensate for.



Yeah, but I gots me a sneaking suspision that the lindens don't care as much when you had damage enabled on. Not saying they dont care, but not as much.



Actually, "my land" is in many places, only one of which obviously is my home. In any event, the brief "teleporting" screen is damn annoying, and another fun chance for my client to ghost me/glitch/hang/crash.



You can fling several hundred bullets away a second, with 100% effectiveness? That would be a feat I would like to see. I'd also like to see the script for such a system, as I can't think of any way it could be done... much less done without being overly harsh on the sim. I won't lag a sim, sorry.

By the way, go look for guns using non-physical bullets. Your system isn't going to do squat against them They are rare, but they do exist.



No, I did consider it. I considered it LONG ago, Tcoz. And discarded the idea for the reasons I've listed here. The questionable protection the ToS may give me if my land was damage enabled is not a big enough benefit to be worth the extra hassle.



Actually, I've never hesitated to fling a moron a few sims away when the situation called for it. Never even got a warning, happily. I only do that if the situation is extreme, mind you... I rarely find a good eject/ban doesn't get the message across. In the few cases it doesnt... Meh. They suck, and I've used TeleportHome (until the next patch, I will continue to)... But it's not worth the extra headache.

This sounds like a clever and easy self-defense mechanism for those who want to do it!

coco

In fairness, it is clever and easy. My arguement was never with that

A bullet moving at that velocity will likely tunnel right through you. For this reason I had to slow the velocity on the vorago bullets to make them consistently hit targets. "Guns these days" are no different than guns in those days. Tracking, speed, damage, etc. has been around since beta. Don't forget I have built and polished a stable, portable, long running weapons system with a variety of different kinds of strength, speed, scatter damage, etc. Grenades, sniper rifles, automatic, semi-automatic, all in there. I know what I'm talking about.

And please, three or four scripts will not "lag a sim". People are entirely overstating this effect for their own reasons, which elude me. If you're telling me that running four scanners on your land is going to bring the sim to it's knees, well, it sounds like LL better go back to the drawing board. But it won't. This is just the new battlecry for people trying to impose control over others.

And c'mon. Somebody throws hundreds of bullets from off your land (assume your turn off build), they'll get banned right away. I mean, that makes it easy.

It's a good option. You just may not like it. And no, it doesn't sound like you ever thought it through.

You want the ability to shoot back, here it is. Take it or leave it. You don't like it, fine, but don't outright dismiss it. Pardon me for suggesting it at all.

Ugh suggesting anything on these boards is just exhausting, particularly when the linden love brigade gets involved.

Not talking velocity. I know fast bullets are useless. I'm talking volume. A physics-flinger can only fling so many things a second. I know, I've experimented with them extensivly trying to create basicly exactly what your talking about.



Three or four scripts, no. Three or four sensors firing off as fast as LSL will permit over a wide radius? That's another story. Will it bring a pristine sim to it's knees? No, not hardly. Will it be an overly large contribution to the ill-health of your average less-than-pristine sim? Yeah.



You would think so many things would get people banned right away. I've yet to find ANYTHING short of grid-wide attacks that will.



If you want to believe that, thats your choice. Good luck with it.

That goes for all of those statements, by the way. Just thought I should be clear.

*edit* Linden love bridage? Hardly. For the record, I think the lindens handling of griefing, self-defense, and security is one string of one hair-brained, absent-minded screwup after another.

"You would think so many things would get people banned right away. I've yet to find ANYTHING short of grid-wide attacks that will."

Precisely. Thank you for basically allowing me to rest my case. As this is the situation, perhaps avatars should seek legal ways to defend their plots.

Reit, please just put me on ignore. I'm tired of arguing with you. You don't like my posts and obviously have no respect for anything I think, so do us all a favor and just ignore me ok?

How about surrounding your parcel with a thin Damage Enabled moat and shooting off automaticly when they cross it?

Ah, those good ol' medivel days...

Now THAT I would have to say might be trouble. I could see why LL might not want people spotting up land simply for damage enable defense. Not to mention the fact that you'd have to hit the avatar when they were over the land, which if the strip is thin, might be a problem.

Nah I'd have to say, go with all, and avoid the Linden lambast. If you get attacked from off your land, that's a clearcut violation. Subjects you to the old system of whining and basically seeing nothing done, but there it is. However, that griefer is now persona non grata with a one shot 100% bullet.

Btw, the bigger the bullet, the easier it is to take actions on and defend against. So bring on the big bombs and watch them fly up to the moon. Yes, it works. I've done it. And say what you will but I'm not overly inclined to show you how it's done Reit.

I ignore people who spout nothing but endless stupidity.

I haven't ignored you.

Tcoz, Would you consider running a self defense course sponsored by The Learning Center (TLC). During a meeting with Jamie Otis and Squagmire Stravinsky concerning TLC curriculum and course schedules the suggestion of a self defense course for TLC teachers, which would also be appropriate for any event holder, came up. I'd recommend you to head up the whole department.

i'd damage-enable my land but I seem to the only person I know accustomed to working above the cloud line, my freinds come and visit, find new and creative ways to fall 500 meters, and then i'd end up having to Tp them again.....

If course, since moving out of the sandboxes, and generally avoiding the mainland, I haven't run into more the occassional greifer. And those are easily dealt by telling them to disable client-side pushing with CTRL-Q.

... or by just by introducing to a Delogger, but that's another show altogether and I'm not allowed to bring it up. The Lindens already don't like me.

If you're falling from as high as 500 m you have plenty of time to click the Fly button. No, the real hazard of having a damage-enabled parcel is you have to get really good at smoothly landing your plane.

Shhhh. Don't give away all our best secrets to the griefers. We don't want them to know how to do that!

haha!

whoops.

sometimes I cannot contain my 1337 skills.

"Don't Test Me Bitch! I'm One-Three-Three-Seven!!!!1111LOL!!!"

The police blotter tends to indicate that abuse reporting is quite an effective tool. Warning and suspensions are given in multiple times daily. Turning on damage is just silly.

Regards,

-Flip

Yeah right, abuse reporting is effective. And the police blotter is an active deterrent with detailed info that clearly demonstrates the effectiveness of LL griefer policies. What a joke.

Really man, are you just a linden alt or something? I mean, how else could you say such a thing. I had a guy threaten me physically, and directly, not implied or ambiguous in any way, and then attempt to use push guns on me when I banned him from my land, and he remained in game for days in spite of numerous abuse reports, screenshots, logs, the whole bit.

That user later returned to the game as an alt and started notifying players that they were responsible for the death of the original resident. I had to walk around for days wondering if this user was in fact some psycho or whether the resident was really dead. LL, after several mails, finally got back to me with a rather thin response about how my security was ensured and to contact local authorities if I heard from the user outside of SL.

Two residents on either side of my plot in Natoma didn't like my hill. So they started to wall me in. Crude pictures, prophanity, the whole bit. It took almost two weeks of reports to get them to stop. They are both still in game. And can you believe that a Linden came to me and tried to convince me to just take the easy path and drop the hill? I mean, why wasn't that Linden going to those two "neighbors" and saying "YOU ARE IN VIOLATION. YOU'RE NOT EVEN TRYING TO HIDE IT. STOP, NOW, OR GET BANNED AND HAVE YOUR LAND CLEARED, NOW."

Oh yeah and did someone say Grimmy? or the Homies? How long did it take? These guys were allowed to run on so long that people actually had to start alts just to play peacefully.

Statements that the Lindens are effectively managing griefers is ridiculous. It ignores piles of evidence to the contrary.

What they are doing is banning people that are fighting back. That's been in the police blotter too, hasn't it.

Damage enable your land. Set up the protection. And shoot back. You want an active solution, there's one you can try, and the only workable alternative I've heard that you can implement directly. It's legal, and properly implemented, will be effective. Getting blown home every time you cross a land threshhold because you pissed somebody off enough to get on their kill list is the griefers bad, not the owners. The griefer should suffer the consequences, not the owner. Warnings and bans are a joke, people who deliberately abandon the TOS/CS and earn them typically don't give a damn.

This has literally been going on for years. Denying it is "just silly".

I'm all for working with the Lindens, and yadayada, as they eventually concoct some even handed way of ensuring the "safety" of avatars. But it's been long enough. For now, find a legal way to shoot back I say.

Heaven forbid you should try to somehow compromise with your neighbors.

Why wasn't the Linden instantly hopping to your defense? Just a wild guess, but maybe cause it was you they were dealing with?

Volume isn't a good indicator of efficacy. For one, we dont know how many abuse reports are received in comparison to the number acted upon. Other facts such as timeliness, circumstances/etc also affect the efficacy of the Lindens. Suspending/banning a griefer means very little if it is hours or days after the event before it is handled. Not to mention if the person being banned is the one trying to defend against the griefers.

Personally, I believe the Lindens have a very laisse-faire attitude about ToS enforcement. Easy/quick suspensions such as griefing defenders (who are more likely admit to their deed, since they did in their eyes 'the right thing') are applied liberally, whereas less-easy or politically-sensitive reports are quietly swept under the carpet or ignored completely.

I'm just speaking out of my own experience here. Out of the dozens of ToS abuse reports I filed over the last year, the only trend I saw was a bare-bones, almost dismissive shrug of their shoulders. And heck knows I'm far from one of the more profilic ToS reporters around.


- Newfie

The offenders were 100 percent in violation. Like, completely. Nobody anywhere disputed it. My worst detractors actually defended me in this instance, stating the obvious: I was there first, I was not in violation, I didn't owe anybody any explanations for why I kept my land the way I did.

Keep in mind that neither one of those two "neighbors" ever approached me directly. That's right, neither of them ever sent a tell asking me to discuss the matter.

So no, the Lindens were not "dealing" with me. They liked these residents and were just reluctant to ban them. So, instead, they tried to persuade me to capitulate. I refused, and guess what...they moved.

Tcoz obviously DOESN'T know what he's talking about, because yes, GUNS THESE DAYS will walk all over any but basically ONE type of shield, and that shield is believed to be a bug (and no, I DON'T mean the phase shield -- phantomed avies can still be pushed) and may be "fixed" down the line. If you hit Jessie/Rausch on a semi-regular basis, you've seen how more and more people seem to have guns/scripts that just blow right through most any shielding you can wear.

As an aside, pushes are "always" illegal? Oh really? Funny, 'cause I've orbited people with push scripts any number of times in damage-enabled lands with no reprecussions.

Damage-enabled, not damage-enabled -- really won't matter, though. Any halfway decent griefer's going to do just as well trouncing on people who don't regularly go out and experiment with SL's brand of PvP, and even the security system that teleports you away can't keep someone like me out if I REALLY WANT to pay you a visit.

At least if you keep your land non-damage-enabled, you can simply sit down and become instantly immune to all attacks (short of the griefer simply trying to lag you to death with particle effects). If all you're trying to do is protect yourself from attackers, that'll beat fancy defenses any day of the week.