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Why the sudden demand for political BS?

pandastrong Fairplay
all bout the BANG POW NOW
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,920
09-21-2005 10:33
From: Cocoanut Koala

That's to explain the political movements (1) and the counter-movements against them (2 and 3). (1) has nothing to do with Panda or Jauani, however. They are just in it for the yuks and/or to destroy MJW, and, in Jauani's case, self-aggrandizement possibilities.


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Margaret Mfume
I.C.
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 2,492
09-21-2005 10:35
From: April Firefly
I said I think. I could be wrong. I hear voices in my head. Why does that mean I am mentally unstable. I never mentioned anyone was mentally unstable. Are you saying I am mentally unstable?

Do you believe that beginning a sentence with "I think" puts it in the suggested possibility realm and out of the insult category? I asked for clarification as to whether my interpretation of your thought, which you chose to put out there for anyone to react to, was correct. As vocal of a proponent of the kinder, gentler forums as you have been in the recent months, I would have expected better than a dodge to the word play game.
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Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
09-21-2005 10:41
You can always ask me, even when I am bitter I have answers and good advice. You know the old story good at giving advice, bad at taking my own advice.

I think the current row has its origins in two things. I think the lindens actions in relation to the GOM were a wake up call to a lot of people who suddenly became worried about how ther investments in SL were to be protected. Secondly I think LL announced and has been making it very clear that it is not interested in the long term role of playing policman in the world. LL intends to be innovators and not administrators, and is likely looking for ways to address the quesstion of how to police conflcuts in the world with minimal involvement from LL. the long term goals of LL seem to be to get out of the business of running SL day to day, while still using the platformas basis for their next innovation.

I think thse two things, the GOM issue and the statement by philip about the long term involvement of LL as police have brought the issue of player government to a head. In essence we are at the threshold of the debate on LL's exit strategy from administration, and there is no complete plan. Nothing like this has been done before.

This is why there is a currrent focus on the debate, but these issues are not old. And I sometimes wonder if the player government-self governing online community notion was not built in from the begining.
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
09-21-2005 10:45
From: Cocoanut Koala
Three things:

1. GOM

2. Fear of Anshe

3. Wishing to keep a policy of favoritism in force, and keeping inevitable demands for equal opportunity suppressed.

That's to explain the political movements (1) and the counter-movements against them (2 and 3). (1) has nothing to do with Panda or Jauani, however. They are just in it for the yuks and/or to destroy MJW, and, in Jauani's case, self-aggrandizement possibilities.

coco



Reported for personal attacks.
April Firefly
Idiosyncratic Poster
Join date: 3 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,253
09-21-2005 10:47
From: Margaret Mfume
Do you believe that beginning a sentence with "I think" puts it in the suggested possibility realm and out of the insult category? I asked for clarification as to whether my interpretation of your thought, which you chose to put out there for anyone to react to, was correct. As vocal of a proponent of the kinder, gentler forums as you have been in the recent months, I would have expected better than a dodge to the word play game.



I do believe saying I think puts it in the opinion range, specifically when no one in particular was singled out. I was trying to interject a little levity into the thread. Please forgive because I obviously failed. I did not single anyone out .

I've never been "a vocal proponent of a kindler gentler forums". You must have me confused with someone else. I've always said the forums were fine the way they are since the last Forum policy change. I think the way people are expressing themselves are just fine. I thought some of us can tolerate certain things. I obviously was wrong. I again apologize and I have removed my posts.

I did not mean to offend anyone.

I hope you can get over my offense and continue to have a good day.
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From: Billybob Goodliffe
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From: Argent Stonecutter
The most successful software company in the world does a piss-poor job on all these points. Particularly the first three. Why do you expect Linden Labs to do any better?
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Goyan Luchador
Carbon Based Humanoid
Join date: 23 May 2004
Posts: 218
09-21-2005 10:48
(Starter thread.) Well put Beau!
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StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
09-21-2005 10:50
From: Khamon Fate
sudden?

recent?

history does not repeat
but it does rhyme
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
09-21-2005 11:07
OK, here's how I feel about these things:

1. I hate the idea of a government in SL. I definitely do not want one. I think most people who play online games hate the idea of a government, except for role-playing ones limited to the people who play them. I know I definitely feel that way.

2. I think of LL as the government. I think most people who play online games tend to think of the game owners as the government, and basically accept them as the ultimate authority. I know I do and I'm happy to do so.

3. I think of in-game groups more as lobbying groups. I don't think anyone should feel threatened by any lobbying group, because people can always make their own. I think an open lobbying group is much LESS to be fearful of, in fact, than various individuals who happen to have the ear of or be friends with Lindens and we have no idea what they are lobbying for in private conversations.

4. I think the Lindens are better than any other game maker on the face of the earth when it comes to listening to their customers. And being polite and diplomatic about it, too, for the most part. Now obviously, I haven't played every game in the world to be able to make that statement. But I betcha it's true!

And even if it is just PR dressing, it's still good. And I think there is ABUNDANT evidence that it's not just PR dressing. Anyway, why would it be? Reasonable people would listen to their customers and try to make people happy, while, of course, protecting their own bottom line. And the Lindens do just that. (It's just sometimes hard to get the message across.)

5. When I came in on SL, in February of this year, what we had was essentially Beta still going on. With Beta players used to having their full say with the Lindens on everything. Being depended on, even. Which is how it should be in any beta. It was nice, friendly, cooperative, heady, and all that stuff, but SL really isn't in beta anymore.

But now we have the Lindens advertising SL as a place where you can start your own business and make real money from it.

They are NOT advertising it as a place where anyone can start their own businesses, but the Lindens will take their favorites and give them perks and promotions that others don't get. That may have been okay in beta, but it's not a small place anymore.

They are also not advertising it as a place where, if they decide your business is something they should offer themselves, they will take it. By first getting together with their favorite of all those who run that business, negotiating with them behind the scenes, while others in the same business know nothing about what's going on. Or that then, if their favored business doesn't agree with their terms, they will go ahead and build it themselves anyway.

6. If it is true that anyone can come and make a business here, then there need to be regulations to ensure equal opportunity for all businesses, and oversight by us to make sure that is the case. This applies to all camps - both to those fearing AnsheChung.com is getting favored and is going to own the whole game before long, and those fearing that people like Anshe can invest thousands of real-life dollars in SL only to have some arbitrary overnight decision on the part of the Lindens wipe it all out. Neither is good.

7. My own feeling is that any unfairness will never fly. I know I'm not alone when I come into this game and say, hey, is this for all of us? Or just a few special people?

If there are going to be $40,000 contracts handed out by the Lindens, then those processes should be open, not given to favored people from their small, already-known pool of players.

If there is going to be a "Developer Directory" instead, then it, too, should be open to all, not just a formalization of who they already like. At the very LEAST, the Lindens should be willing to answer questions about the directory (such as mine). As it stands now, it looks like they are going to be just as circumscript about this as ever. I can't even get out of them how many people/businesses they aim on including, or what the directory is going to be used for, or any other way to determine if it is something I would like to do. It's like they are saying, "If you need to ask questions, then this obviously isn't for you." (Translation: "Because the people we actually DO work with and will offer things to in the future are already working with us and therefore don't need to ask questions.";)

If this is supposed to be a place where you can do business, then all businesses should be given equal opportunity for promotion. Both in the media and on the web pages.

Despite the huge outcry against such notions on the forums from those already recommended, promoted, or featured in such ways, or those who hope to be soon, I think it's safe to say that most people coming into SL will be expecting the same sorts of fair play I've outlined above - and not expecting a small group of Lindens and beta players having fun together while the rest of us go hang. We are not still in beta.

8. All the upset over the formation of these political groups is due to the fact that a single voice, or several single voices, speaking out on the forum can easily be drowned out by a few dozen people invested heavily in the favoritism system. But when people organize to these same ends - in the actual world - there is strength, and it's harder to drown them out. It scares people that the times may be a-changin, and well it should, because they are.

9. I hate politics. It's not my idea of fun. It is my idea of tedium. I hate meetings. I hate the sidelines crap involved that wastes my time, like the taking over of MJW by Jauani. I like to build things. I like to play games like Slingo and Bingo. I like visiting my friends. When I'm sitting there in a stupid meeting, I work on my inventory.

But sit there I do, because the concept of equal opportunity and fair treatment of all residents and businesses is more important than anything else. The lack of it is what will kill this game. (If forum nastiness doesn't do that job first.)

So write it off if you will as a bunch of people who enjoy playing politics for their own ego boost. But count on these groups attracting more players like me, who just get rightly pissed off when they see the Lindens saying all this stuff about making money through businesses in SL, then turn around and hand out the best stuff and/or the most promotion to their own favorites. Or pull the rug out from under one of those businesses to take it over themselves. (Thus causing the Linden to crash.)

Once these major things are no longer a problem, then people like me will be perfectly happy to fade away and let those who enjoy politics, or enjoy having their ego boosted through politics, or whatever, work out all the finer points and whatever else they want to do. Major unfairness, though - that's just something I can't ignore. And I'm not the only one.

Meanwhile, I haven't heard anything yet at any of these meetings that would be a threat to anyone, or would not be good for SL overall. Well, I take that back. I guess these things would be at least a temporary threat to anyone currently enjoying unfair advantages.

coco
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
09-21-2005 11:10
From: Eboni Khan
Reported for personal attacks.

Personal attack? Then I ought to report him for harrassing a group and the people in it. AND I DO MEAN HARRASSING. Telling lies about me to 110 people as a proposal to the entire group - saying that I instilled officer recall when I didn't - being just one example of it.

I'm pretty sure there is something somewhere in the TOS about harrassing groups. And people, including using the proposal system to lie about a person to 110 people.

coco

P.S. And if something gets edited, will you again IM me in the game just to tell me about it, and to tell me gleefully, "You're well on your way to getting banned from the forums?"
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
09-21-2005 11:17
From: Cocoanut Koala
Personal attack? Then I ought to report them for harrassing a group and the people in it. AND I DO MEAN HARRASSING. Telling lies about me to 110 people as a proposal to the entire group - saying that I instilled officer recall when I didn't - being just one example of it.

I'm pretty sure there is something somewhere in the TOS about harrassing groups. And people, including using the proposal system to lie about a person to 110 people.

coco

P.S. And if something gets edited, will you again IM me in the game just to tell me about it, and to tell me gleefully that "you're well on your way to getting banned from the forums?"


Jauani did not post here, yet you posted a direct personal attack. I reported it too. kthxbye
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
09-21-2005 11:19
Well, ok then. I'll make it a point to add my own reports to the plethora of reports Eboni's posts have no doubt gotten, and will add you, too, Weedy.

coco
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
09-21-2005 11:21
From: Cocoanut Koala
Well, ok then. I'll make it a point to add my own reports to the plethora of reports Eboni's posts have no doubt gotten, and will add you, too, Weedy.

coco


Threats now?
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Fushichou Mfume
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 182
09-21-2005 11:27
Money always tries to protect its interests. It's called capitalism. Those with capital do their best to secure their capital and increase it. Those with capital often feel ENTITLED to special, preferential treatment because they realize that in many ways they are a large part of the engine of economy for a given government.

Money talks, and soon goverment is in the pocket of those with capital.

It's the same game all over the world. Even in the socialist/communist states.

It's up to the people who aren't the major capitalists to ensure that the capitalists do not gain an unfair influence over government policy. Otherwise, we are SCREWED, because there is NO such thing as a well-intentioned capitalist.
Margaret Mfume
I.C.
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 2,492
09-21-2005 11:31
From: Weedy Herbst
Jauani did not post here, yet you posted a direct personal attack. I reported it too. kthxbye

That didn't keep you from bringing your opinion of Prok into the "All the NICE people" thread even though, unlike Juani, he can't come in respond to it.
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Ingrid Ingersoll
Archived
Join date: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,601
09-21-2005 11:34
From: Margaret Mfume
That didn't keep you from bringing your opinion of Prok into the "All the NICE people" thread even though, unlike Juani, he can't come in respond to it.



Your location is Second Thoughts right?
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Beau Perkins
Second Life Resident.
Join date: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,061
09-21-2005 11:35
From: Cocoanut Koala

5. When I came in on SL, in February of this year, what we had was essentially Beta still going on. With Beta players used to having their full say with the Lindens on everything. Being depended on, even. Which is how it should be in any beta. It was nice, friendly, cooperative, heady, and all that stuff, but SL really isn't in beta anymore.

But now we have the Lindens advertising SL as a place where you can start your own business and make real money from it.

They are NOT advertising it as a place where anyone can start their own businesses, but the Lindens will take their favorites and give them perks and promotions that others don't get. That may have been okay in beta, but it's not a small place anymore.

They are also not advertising it as a place where, if they decide your business is something they should offer themselves, they will take it. By first getting together with their favorite of all those who run that business, negotiating with them behind the scenes, while others in the same business know nothing about what's going on. Or that then, if their favored business doesn't agree with their terms, they will go ahead and build it themselves anyway.


coco


DING DING DING DING- HERE IS THE PROBLEM!!!!

Coco, I know we have recently come to a truce so to speak, but with all do repect, STOP CRYING FAVORITISM.

I do not get any special treatment from the Lindens. I do not even get special treatment from you residents and your dumb lists. YET I still operate a very succesful, profitable, fun business in SL. The funny this is my focus was never even profit, it was "discount store". Yet I still make money.

Stop making it seem like the Lindens pick and choose who makes money, I am living proof that your theories(and Prokmeisters) are all fabricated.

THis is the problem though, your post displays how people make up, or exagerate issues and suddenly they are taking a stand and lobbying for something that really is not an issue at all.

Please don't take offence, I just see comments like this as part of the problem.
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
09-21-2005 11:35
From: Margaret Mfume
That didn't keep you from bringing your opinion of Prok into the "All the NICE people" thread even though, unlike Juani, he can't come in respond to it.


Although this is off topic, I will respond.

I didn't mention any names, and posted tongue in cheek. There is a difference.
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
09-21-2005 11:48
Beau,

It's certainly not new, this stuff's been going on in one form or another for a couple of years now.

My personal take on it is as follows.

SL mirrors RL in many ways - and just as you find people in RL who think they are wiser, more logical and/or smarter than others, so too, do we find this in SL. Many like to sell themselves as altruists.

Ideally, if these folks were really more altruistic and smarter, they would make decent candidates to represent the rest of us. The problem is, most of them are self-interest driven narcissists, who form and hold grudges against those who would dare challenge their "juggernaut" of "intellectual prowess".

I think this is amplified to an extent in SL, because of the anonimity factor. Some folks feel much safer and bolder bloviating facelessy from behind a keyboard, although I am quite sure some are public PITAs as well.

I also think some simply get off by creating turmoil.

There are tactics for selling politics - fear at the forefront. "If you don't join me, the cool-kids are going to keep giving you melvins and swirlies!", or, "There is a power vacuum! You better fill it, or somebody else will!", etc.

When this stuff first started to surface a while back, I let it get me riled up, and I actively fought against it. As time went on, I started to realize that these were really paper tigers with egos the size of the Grand Canyon, or RL baggage dragging, embittered, would be demagogues. I realized that LL is, and will be, the only government on the main grid.

And the beat goes on.... la dee da dee dah... la dee da dee dee...
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DogSpot Boxer
vortex thruster
Join date: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 671
09-21-2005 12:00
Nolan, kick *ss post.

I don't think anyone else has capsulized the situation as clearly and to the point.

"melvins and swirlies"

LMAO.
Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
09-21-2005 12:10
Fuck the bill of rights... I want a bill of lefts.
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From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
09-21-2005 12:12
From: Beau Perkins
DING DING DING DING- HERE IS THE PROBLEM!!!!

Coco, I know we have recently come to a truce so to speak, but with all do repect, STOP CRYING FAVORITISM.

I do not get any special treatment from the Lindens. I do not even get special treatment from you residents and your dumb lists. YET I still operate a very succesful, profitable, fun business in SL. The funny this is my focus was never even profit, it was "discount store". Yet I still make money.

Stop making it seem like the Lindens pick and choose who makes money, I am living proof that your theories(and Prokmeisters) are all fabricated.

THis is the problem though, your post displays how people make up, or exagerate issues and suddenly they are taking a stand and lobbying for something that really is not an issue at all.

Please don't take offence, I just see comments like this as part of the problem.

O.K. I think I may have just hit upon the answer to the problem here. It isn't so much favoritism as it is arbitrary passing out of advantages and privileges.

The word "favoritism" unfortunately implies that a given individual is in a favored position, all the time. And as we know, there are plenty of people who have gotten arbitrary advantages whether they want it or not, and haven't even asked for it. And those exact same individuals then do NOT get what they want when they do ask for it.

So maybe favoritism is implying things I don't mean for it to. Arbitrary passing out of advantages and privileges is probably a much better way of putting it. After all, Cristiano didn't ask to have Snapzilla on the front page, did he? It just HAPPENED to him. And yet, Cristiano could probably think of several things he would like to happen, and he may have even told the Lindens that he would like them to happen, yet they do not. (A not very good example, since there really wasn't much other choice nearly as desirable as Snapzilla, but it's an example we all know about.)

So how about calling it arbitrary passing out of perks? In fact, when I've always thought of it, I never thought of it as individuals who are always favored, always immune, or always listened to, at all.

In fact, I have always thought of it like that Machine in Toy Story. "The Claw!" The claw swooped down and got one of dozens of those little alien toys, who viewed it with reverence, telling each other, "The Claw is coming!" "The Claw might choose you!" "You might be next!"

That's exactly how I've always viewed it, in case that helps you understand me more. But there shouldn't BE any claw, see?

So from now on I will call it arbitrary passing out of benefits and privileges. Though I do wish there were a shorter way of putting that.

coco

P.S. They don't pick and choose who makes money. But they arbitrarily pass out benefits and privileges which help individuals make more money, and that is unfair to others, and they must give more thought to that.
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Margaret Mfume
I.C.
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 2,492
09-21-2005 12:13
From: Weedy Herbst
Although this is off topic, I will respond.

I didn't mention any names, and posted tongue in cheek. There is a difference.

Does it only count if you use the full name? I used the same 4 letter nickname as you. I just thought you were being ironic here.

I am truly fascinated by the many and diverse ways humor has been applied as a defense of what could be easily viewed as at least an insult if not as an attack. Tongue in cheek, levity, irony, and the ever ubiquitous dry sense of humor...could we have the next Robin Williams or Dave Chappelle in our very midst?
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
09-21-2005 12:14
From: Siggy Romulus
Fuck the bill of rights... I want a bill of lefts.


You are always left to pick up the bill, right?
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Jonquille Noir
Lemon Fresh
Join date: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,025
09-21-2005 12:20
The other roleplaying games must have their quota of players met.
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Gallinas
Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
09-21-2005 12:26
From: Margaret Mfume
Does it only count if you use the full name? I used the same 4 letter nickname as you. I just thought you were being ironic here.

I am truly fascinated by the many and diverse ways humor has been applied as a defense of what could be easily viewed as at least an insult if not as an attack. Tongue in cheek, levity, irony, and the ever ubiquitous dry sense of humor...could we have the next Robin Williams or Dave Chappelle in our very midst?


So, when you say "irony", what is it you are alluding to?
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