Dysfunctional SL forums... Solutions?

HEHE rubs hands together at the vision of the carnage that would ensue...Muahahahaha

Yeah to be honest I kinda miss those guys...call me crazy if you will but oh the color of the forums then..hehe.

Shadow

They were simpler times, then, Shadow. I've been taking a bit of a nostalgia trip and reading some of the old posts, because the forums really suck lately.

Case in point... one of Chris Nomad's typical responses was "Was it the FUCK or the OFF that confused you?". Now given that you could boil down most of Prok's posts to the same thing, why can't he be that succinct instead of rambling for pages on end? Take a tip from the old masters, I say!

Grrrrr...fights so hard not to take it to the next level...Fuck it ..I have to admit it was the OFF that always confused me.

I mean Off goes with so many words...like

Fuck off
Get off
Rip off
Piss off
Jump off
Frag off
Me off

I mean seriously On doesnt go with all those words just look at em with on

Fuck on
Get on
Rip on
Piss on
Jump on
Frag on
and me on sounds like Moron...lol

Ok Im being silly back to being serious.

Shadow

I tried to have a thread describing my real life as a "libertarian". It wasn't a a propaganda job, attempting to make people join me in some set of beliefs or get people to join an organization. It wasn't an attempt to do anything with the Second Life world regarding policies. It was me talking about my life.

One person is all it takes to ruin a thread. Craw Mysterio's reply spoiled the thread, introducing a disagreement about a subject which I had no desire to speak about. I don't think Craw meant what he said, he made his post purely out of meanness and hatefulness. Whether it is personal or because the word libertarian is one of the triggers that sets off this person I don't know. It would seem pretty clear that a person who truly had something to say on a subject, as Craw tried to make it appear, would start their own thread on the subject instead of interjecting irrelevant argument into a lighthearted thread describing my real life experiences. I think it is more likely that Craw made up a bunch of gibberish from looking up some aspect of libertarianism in the wikipedia or picked out some words from a few Google links.

So my thread is ruined. No point in starting another one, Craw will show up a spoil that one too, I suspect.

Congratulations to Craw, you spoiled my fun, I guess that made you happy.

Sorry to hear that Suezanne. Rather than talking about Craw specifically, maybe this is a good chance to share any ideas you have about preventing future thread destruction by anybody. I haven't posted the poll yet so I am still open to suggestions.

I took a short break from the forums and feel better already. Highly recommended medicine who find their fuses a bit frayed.

Personally, I would like to thank those who started and those who have participated in this thread in a meaningful way. It has nothing to do with ego, and everything to do with trying to work together to improve the situation (as opposed to, say, complaining about it).


As Cris noted, these things can be cyclical, so that even if technical changes are not forthcoming to the forums, hopefully these recent threads have brought front-to-mind to each person how they aspire to communicate and react.

It is a posters responsibiltiy, really, to not derail a thread.

Humorous anicdotes should apply in some way to the topic at hand .. AND .. some small mention at least should be made towards the original topic so as to show it was merely an attempt to add levity and not to derail.

Often humor leads to more humor and a complete derail if posters are irresponsible.

Topical derailments -- such as ranting about something slightly related, or going off on a tanget. Should be clearly stated that they are going beyond the subject of the thread, so as further posters know not to derail.

If argumentative statements need to be made , an effort should also be made to some extent towards the subject of the original post
.. even something as simple as "Geez how could you say something so stupid, and those comments have nothing to do with the subject of this thread"

Long, sermon style rants that are on topic can also derail a thread .. both becuase people often see such text blocks of doom and just skip that post .. or worse see something inflamatory while speed reading and zoom in on that. ANd even if they read it .. sermon style rants can often be patronizing in tone , which can shorten tempers.

So really when posting you should always read the first post at a minimum in a thread .. so you know the Original Posters area of concern. That way you do not cuase this concern to be minimized , or further its trivialization.

Of course a humourous thread topic ... its a little less important to stay on subject, since its mainly for entertainment value.

Not even a full week.

Sad.

Aimee -- good work leading a topical matter through discussion while avoiding the ever and increasingly strident attempts to knock it off course. I look forward to seeing the vote and hope this will receive the attention it deserves from LL.

Amy,

I was thinking about this some last night and thought I'd address each idea:



The creation of a marginally moderated, mature section might be an good idea though I sort of view the off topics section as something pretty similar now. I'm not sure that adding such a section would really change the tone of the general forums because some people may not view their post as a rant but rather see it as a valid opinion. Particularly if they are angry or upset about the topic. Also, I don't see how this will prevent what begins as a valid topic from degenerating into a fist fight when people feel strongly about their positions.



Then the question in my mind would be, what constitutes a higher standard? Not allowing personal attacks? They should not be allowed now. Spelling and sentence structure? Topic? I think that this is too difficult to define and a lot of people would be intimidated from posting because they are uncertain on what constitutes a higher standard.



I have difficulty with this one because it borders on censorship even though the offensive poster could open their own thread. I think that it also has potential for spiraling out of control with 50 different threads open on the same subject.

- Yikes! I'd go broke (and be unbelieveably bored at work).



While this might eliminate the alt posting issue, it would really be a problem for people like my husband and I who are both on the same credit card and in the same home.



Of all the ideas, I think that this one is the best. Allowing both positive and negative ratings.

One last comment, maybe people need to be reminded from time to time that there are real people behind the keyboard and that they have feelings.

There are new people who find their way to the forums fresh with great ideas and they are bound to feel a sense of deflation when they are told that everything that can ever be done in SL has once been done by someone else.

There are people who are sensitive about their command of the english language or about their ability to form words into comprehensive thoughts regardless of what language they speak. There are people who are sensitive about race, gender or sexual orientation. There are people who are sensitive about religion.

It is difficult to know what people are sensitive about sitting behind a keyboard but when we forget that there IS actually a human behind the keyboard, it's easier to trample on these sensitivities. Maybe that is the reason that less of this sort of flaming goes on in world - because in seeing an Avatar, it reminds us that there really is a person behind the words and gives us a glimpse of who they are.

.

Hey Rose, thank's for your input. I think ALL of your comments were outstanding, and these were the only two I felt needed some clarification:



The words being thrown around here lately are impolite, disruptive, and needlessly repetitive. But you're right, just as the Lindens had to decide what the current forum standards are, they are going to have to decide what the "Higher standards" will be. And when this section is first created it will indeed be intimidating. But I believe when conversations get going, people will push the limits and have their threads moved, and after a while people will get a feel for what is expected.


Yes I think I may take the money element out of that one and replace it with some generalized limit preventing non-stop Diatribes.

No contest!

Interesting thread Aimee!

We've seen so many different Excellent! ideas of how to change and trasform the Forums and I believe we've evolved to the place where what's best is for LL to remove all controls and restrictions and we'll take care of ourselves.

Oh how percise was Marshall McLuhan's vision in The Medium is the Massage:

Google here:

Wired Mag's Patron Saint

Very interesting that your list doesn't include people examining their own behavior and the way they contribute to the problem as individuals. You are still looking for a techical solution to what is primarily a behavorial problem.

I find myself contemplating if taking a belt to a bad kid is a techical solution to a behavior problem.

In any case, run your straw poll. I suspect that at the end of the day, any technical solution will prove impotent against those, in all camps, who are determined to continue this unbecoming behavior.

Excellent! I agree - this is about us!

While my own post was about poster's own responsibilties so I basically agree with your statement. It really cant be part of a solutions list , since , theres no way other then suggestion to make people behave in a responsible manner.

The sad thing is its in the flame trolls worst interest to be disruptive. Since you presume they really would rather people saw some of their ideas as useful. While they may consider it being Outspoken and not afraid to back down, in reality they seem more like someone having a tantrum in many cases , or Someone telling the rest of us our opinions lack value.

If someone wants to be influential. They should strive to be concise, well reasoned and ignore personal entanglements.

Since its the Inspiration fo their Ideas that should matter - not how much and how loud they can type.

As to the ideas --

A rating system per post seems a good idea.

Maybe the thread starter could set a maximum post length of a certain number of lines? Some threads might be good for long discussions while others wouldnt be. Of course the poster could post over and over, but it would serve as a not so subtle hint they are talking top much without listening to others.

that being said my post is kinda long =) so ill stop.

Jim I don't want to leave you out, but your input is very vague and difficult to nail down in terms that do not start going into "vibes". For example, anybody who is not currently reflecting on their own behavior is fairly unlikely to start because of this poll. Perhaps suggest how you can get the community as a whole to reflect on their own behavior? Group activities maybe? Self-reflection events?

Even if some options do not get into the poll, people will still be able to post their comments in the new thread. I'm sure the Lindens will take these comments seriously.

I didnt think it was at all vague. We are each responsible for our own behavior. We choose what we contribute to the tone of the forums. I didn't realize acknowledging that responsibility was so complicated. Sine it appears to be, I guess I dont have anything else to contribute.

So ... as I said earlier ... carry on. Whack away at this all you like.

Lord, I would too Anyone know what became of Chris? We know that Regnar departed SL after the 8 year old seeing swear words debacle. A forum smackdown between Prokofy and Christopher Nomad would certainly be something to see.

Aimee, your effort is constructive and deserves support. There's one aspect of the problem I'd like to highlight: we lose potential posters with a lot to offer.

Each of us knows our own limits, when we 'give up on the forums' for awhile. What we seldom see is the 'why bother posting' decision on the part of others who have tried to contribute only to see their thread hijacked. Why should a serious constructive person who is short of time post here if he observes that his efforts just provide a platform to be hijacked?


Here are a few personal thoughts regarding your categories of possible solutions:


Possible solution: don't feed the trolls.
My opinion: it doesn't work.

I take the approach of not feeding the trolls. It doesn't help. Threads are hijacked because a hijacker seeks attention, and feels driven to post and post and post. The content might be useful suggestions, blather or total outright lies repeated on the forums despite being presented by in-game assertions to the contrary from the person being cited as supporting the liar.

Possible solution: rating and negrating.
My opinion: the negrating capability would be a gift to those who are fueled by ill-will.

My position is unusual, since I've been harassed in-game for a long time by a forum troll. It's mildly entertaining, not a big inconvenience, and my profile makes the situation clear in case somebody wonders why I have so many negrates. : ) My detractor uses many many alts to seem more powerful or whatever. In-game I've used the mute button to counter IM-stalking, and my detractor has responded by bringing in yet another alt. Friends get negged too, just for the crime of being with me. Surprise -- all that does is make another enemy against the harasser. Wow, who would have guessed? But if we institute negrating on the forums a person who doesn't flame or do bandwidth-hogging could get mass negged by alts purely out of spite. That would tend to make the constructive person feel that our forums do not offer a good return on the investment of time.

Traxx thank you for your kind words. The voting is happening here:

/120/b0/44576/1.html

But it aint pretty.

I think that Anyone who use what is said in a venue like the forums .. As an Excuse to retaliate against someone INSIDE the game .. is blatantly without ethics.

That would include NEG rating sending any IMs that continue the discussion, or making an effort to harrass the persons friends.

You cant be a champion of free speech on the forums and retaliate against someone in the game. Its hypocritical.

The forums are a written , sequential media , misunderstandings are easy and there is extremely limited dynamic of conversation. Becuase of this its simply not fair to anyone to use this as a basis to counterattack in game.

And I do know one of the current uber trolls has used this technique, since both the threat was made on the forums and the target admited she was neg rated in the same thread.

Nice job posturing in front of the community one again, with a lot of false and misleading statements, trying to position yourself to be Mr. Positive Community Builder, when there are some of us who know *all to well* what a pose this is, and what tripe this is. I don't even have to bother to counter it, because sooner or later, the real faces will become evident.

Meanwhile, for anybody who'd like to see a list of what Traxx *thinks* are my alts, since he's published a thinly veiled reference to me here, let them hurry over to his home in Windemere, and hurry on over to his construction site in Alope. There the curiousity-seeker will see his ban list of some *some but not all of* my alts -- including of some inactive accounts -- but also a list that may include not only me, but some of my actual tenants, who are unrelated to anything I do. I'm not sure what method Traxx uses to "out" my alts -- perhaps he merely randomly selects whoever is giving tier donations to our group. Of course, they have no burning need to visit Traxx or his employer so they don't mind being banned.

If somebody thought that there is a ban on mentioning people's alts in the forums, well, I guess Traxx has found a way around it, hmm, by referring to his "detractor" in a thread designed to attack me, and making sure that on his in-game profile he has a whole rant about me (not named, but everyone knows it is about me) with all kinds of hysterical, untrue, and misleading statements -- chief of which is that all Traxx's negs come from me -- they don't lol. He's just now found a convenient way to hide that truth LOL. And by putting on his land "bans are all person" -- he's handily achieved a nice "outing" of my alts. Good thing I don't care, because my alts aren't secret, and I don't use them to harm people or deceive them or fake them out in some way. They are merely holding groups. And if someone thinks that alts shouldn't exist, or that they shouldn't be allowed to hold land groups together, then they should complain to the same Lindens who advised me to use alts to hold land groups together precisely because of the current flaws in the group land tools.

I was harassed first in-game, so I fought back. In case anybody wonders about negrates, they should wonder more about the posrates that this person was happy to take for so long and dine out on Linden dollars with them LOL.

We understand how very very very busy you are Traxx at...your chosen occupation of being a "professional architect in a game". We're all busy and we all have game pursuits and RL pursuits. In fact, your heavy posting in recent weeks suggestions you might not have *quite enough* to do, but we'll leave that to your discretion. Clealy, in your age-old and self-proclaimed burning desire to influence game devs, you've figured out that the groovay thing to get their attention now is to talk about zoning or communities or voting -- things you really don't care that much about, because when you run things, you make an entire neighbourhood called REVOLT which isn't about revolting against anything but other people, since you take over their lots, put in houses all with your identical style (whatever its 'iterations'), make and alt called NOBODY and under the guise of capturing the anti-government vote, get everyone to vote for NOBODY and be "popular" . Feh. Pretty transparent stuff.

I suggest Aimee and her friends create a separate, exclusive, for-pay-only section of the forums, endorsed by the Lindens, where they can go and have their little gossip sessions but where all these rules she's suggested are in force. She'll soon find out that they do things like prevent a wife sharing a credit card to pay for this game from speaking because only her husband, who logged first will get to speak. And many other unintended consequences. I suggest the Lindens let her and her friends live with those unintended consequences for the learning experience.



This is a reference to a false witness. A false witness is not only someone who says something false, or who is set up to say something false, but a person who keeps insisting that her subjective impression -- which she has been helped along mightily to have by the malicious -- is the truth! Whatever the merits of her subjective impression, when asked by me in-game what was up, and what all the fuss was over, she admitted that the "guys in the white house told her she was pressured" -- i.e. they put words in her mouth to some extent. For whatever reason, she decided to stick to her false and misleading story. That doesn't make it any truer.

So let's go over the facts on this again:

1. I do not pressure or scam newbies, I do not pounce on them to beg them to make first-land sales -- this is the essence of the false witness' claim, that I pounced on her and demanded that she sell her land for a low price (not true).
2. I don't go trolling around first land looking for newbies to buy first land from, I help people who have contacted me for rentals to buy first land and sell it to me -- if they desire -- or on the open market -- I give them tips.
3. I asked this person who later became the false witness, in the course of buying lots from other people, if she would be interested in selling her land and then taking a rental. It was a normal question, perfectly legitimate and not a "pounce."
4. I did that because I saw she and the friend she said she intended to live with had already acquired several plots, indicating they weren't rank newbies, but savvy older players or just savvy new players who were not shrinking violets when it came to land trading.
5. She said, no, and I didn't persist, because I had absolutely no objective need to buy any of her land. If anything, she expressed a need to buy more land herself in that area to make contiguous lots. I wasn't interested in selling my lot, so I didn't ask her further.
6. She then proceeded to pressure my customer and try to get him to sell his land! That's what the record really shows, not me pressuring her. That's why this entire episode is so laughable.
7. As part of a long-standing campaign against me he has run in the game, Traxx IM'd this customer of mine, urged him not to do business with me, took the side of the false witness and brainwashed her further, and then kept after my customer, trying to get him not to deal with me. Fortunately, I caught him at this.

8. Traxx continues to bring forward this false witness, despite the fact that she did the following:

-- She placed a large board phsyically over my land, with the root prim placed on her own land in such a way that I could not return her object. This was land I had purchased from Anshe (NOT from her or her friend obviously) and had set to resale -- she was trying to prevent me from selling my own land possibly because she hoped to pressure my client into selling his on the waterfront -- or for some other reason -- to gain some contiguous lots next to the waterfront at a time when they weren't available yet from the auction. The Lindens records can show that I was forced to call a Linden to get them to remove this false witness' board from my land which I was attempting to sell -- land that had never, ever belonged to this false witness or her friend, but which I had purchased from Anshe.


--She rRefused to respond when I pointed out to her that her boyfriend or whatever had set this land to sale that she thought they'd be living on. I bought his land for the market price. I then even took it off resale to try to determine if in fact this person really was feeling some pressure and really didn't want the land sold -- although her friend had openly put it on sale, without telling her.

--She proceeded to buy up more than 5000 m2 of land in the sim, and set it to resale for a very exhorbitant price. It remains for sale at a lower but still high price in the same sim.

Honestly, this is a fragile newbie that I"m supposed to worry about as someone I "pressured" and I "pounced" on? Give me a fucking break. This is a person who put a fucking board over my land to try to stop my legitimate sale. This is a person who tried to bully my own client into making a sale and is now trying to cover up their tracks.

Look at the facts of the situation, put away your personal baggage, and get off your high horse. My business is legitimate. I do not scam newbies. I do not pressure them. Whatever the motivation of this false witness is to stick to her brainless and transparent story, the facts of the matter are this: she never sold land to me. I did not pressure her. She bought other people's land. She can take care of herself. My other client never sold his land but decided to keep it, not selling either to her or to me.

So what is the big fucking deal here? It's about this: the need of one person to be right all the time, to make harsh, perfectionist judgements against another person, and not to let them go, the need of someone to prevail, to subdue another person, and not acknowledge that they, too, have the right to exist in a game, and have a business, and be happy without being crushed to death by another.

Give it up, Traxx, it only discredits you, not me. You are associated with people who are harming me and my rentals tenants. Your employers are involved in some pretty heinous actions like malicious officer recalls that harm me and a group of people innocently renting from me. Leave us a alone.

I will be sure to show up in every thread necessary not only to protect my good name on this matter, and to protect myself and my tenants from further malice, but to challenge the overall world ideology of this individual which tends towards the closed society type. It's not something I'd like to see in our world.

Let the record show that I do not make personal attacks. I respond to personal attacks when they are made against me.

It totally disagree. I think using negrates against people who defy all ethics in the forums by using coarse, vulgar, hateful, vituperative language against you in the forums, and harassing you regularly in the forums, is legitimate and indeed helps to strengthen the ethics in the forums.

I think vicious forums posters should be negrated in the game on "behaviour" and in fact on all three subjects since their appearance and their building in the sense of creating a community are all highly suspect due to their actions.

I defintely, definitely support negrating people who behave badly in this manner as a legitimate, necessary, and even underused feature of the game that should be used more often. I think too often people behave despicably here because they feel there are no consequences. A nice fat negrate in the game concentrates their mind wonderfully -- they have to rethink things they've done like make a gigantic caricature of you with an asshat and the icon from the boards here, or if they've write you something like "if you had kids I wouldn't ask you to fucking send it" and nasty things like that.

Such vulgar, coarse, hateful language all too often gets a pass here on the forums becuse the Lindens can't be everywhere, and not every player wants to spend their time trying to file ARs.



I think that if the friends are brought to someone's side in a fight and deployed to make some big point, they deserve a negrate in battle, too.

And the Lindens -- none other than the Lindens -- tell you to take your personal disagreements out of the forums and back into the game, and to use IMs and chat. And that also means other legitimate and sanctioned game features like the negrate and the ban. They are there to be used.



A negrate expressions a negative opinion of someone's behaviour, not of their "free speech". They can express what ever opinion they like, they're negrated not for their act of expression, but the content, which is objectionable. They've lied, slandered, and been vicious to you. Their behaviour just barely skirts the TOS so the Lindens can't do a thing. That's why negrates exist -- to express undeniable, instant disatisfaction with the really bad and insufferable way a person has acted.

Get acquainted with the facts of the story (above) and you'll see there is every reason not only to neg rate this person and their supporters, but to ban them from lots. And these are legitimate game tools, and I use them, handily.

That doesn't mean that I go scouring the game for chances to multi-negrate people I don't agree with, using my alts. I've done that only in one very special circumstance for one very vicious individual. I can think of only 4 people here who I've negrated due to their screamingly bad behavior and vituperative insults, but they aren't getting any kind of mass alt attack.



Perhaps it's unfair, but then they need to stop using vicious attacks with vulgar language and ridicule and harassment in that sequential media.



And indeed that person deserved every bit of that negrate for their bad behaviour and insulting, coarse, and venomous language. Look at what people write FIRST, then think about the negrate they get AFTERWARDS which is LEGITIMATE.

If this is correct, then on this issue in my opinion the Lindens are wrong.

The rest of your post basicaly flows from this idea its okay and sanctioned so I dont see a need to respond further past what I posted previously on your other specific points.

In many games your forum name and in game name are not automatically one in the same, precicely so forum disagreements dont carry over into In game conflicts.

If for some reason a disagreement becomes so personal to flow into the game, people should take a step back and consider their level of detachment between their First Life and Second.

Honestly, this is a good example of things I would like to see people have the self-restraint to take to another thread...like the Rants forum.