Dysfunctional SL forums... Solutions?

Where were you in those other threads when that really was happening?

The creation of a "Rants and Raves" section

This has been tried before, and in every community I have seen the tactic used it devolves into a "License to be an Asshole". Although it's not explicit, people get used to acting out in this forum and it bleeds into others. Also there is a subtle undercurrent of "Oh I'll just make this in General and it might get moved to rants, no big deal".

The creation of a "Higher Standards Area"

More work for already overburdened admins.

Allow Thread Creators to have the power to delete posts in their own threads

No no no no no. Please no. I don't think it's our place to do this at all, the potential for abuse is astronomical.

As has been said here previously, the only real way to deal with what amounts to forum trolls is to ignore them. Either with the provided tools, or just block them out and don't rise to the bait if you are strong enough to resist seeing the words there. When it comes down to it that is the only way to deal with them. In the most extreme cases, i.e. someone actually violating rules/guidelines, use the "Report this post" button on every single post. As a previous admin of a well-populated forum myself, I can say it is just plain impossible to keep track of what goes on in every thread and user reports can call attention to something that will otherwise be missed. In this way problems in your thread can get taken care of but the judgment remains with those who are charged with fairly (in theory) making them rather than a user's whim.

And it's important to remember that just because someone doesn't want to listen to you; that doesn't make it censorship.

I would like to additionally submit that its time for SL forum moderators to directly address the person to whom their remarks are intended.

When moderators address no one in particular, no one thinks that the warning is directed towards them - which gives those who may not inspect themselves for culpability no indication that their behavior is problematic.

Of course, in general I've noticed that by the time a mod is alerted to problems in a thread, there are a number of contributors to the problem, and naming names gets to be pointless by then. I can see why it doesn't generally happen.

If the person in question receives an additional warning in private, then I retract my suggestion. Thank you, Jeska and Pathfinder, for taking on a thankless job.

Hiro, were you planning on sitting on the committee that would decide when someone was just "making their points too many times"? I think a player-based committee would be the only way to go because forum mods couldn't possibly be spending time on that. I think it would probably be a rather subjective thing, however, and you'd find several committees springing up fighting each other over who was doing it more, and you'd have troll=by-committee then LOL.

Uri, what is a troll, really? I mean, I'm not up as much on Internet culture and forum culture as I need to be, and with your Well experience, you could explain. Someone who posts an essay with principles and theses that people disagree violently with? Or somebody just negatively bumping a post along, making it constantly scud the dregs? Or?? Maybe provide some live examples? To me, trolls are people who constantly can't resist saying "and another thing..." and "he said, she said..." and "and...your mother..." They keep insulting, retorting, and responding without grasping the real essences of points. They are often too dimwitted to do that, and just operate on a kind of antagonistic emotional energy.



I'd be for that, sure, because then we'd really finally be able to get Ulrika to realize that Coco and I are separate, and that all this allegations that I alt-game the forums are tripe LOL. But it raises issues for the Lindens. What if they have one familiy of father, mother, son, all playing on one credit card? What, only the father gets to speak for the entire family? Or a married couple? Or two college students in a dorm room? There are numerous variations of ISPs being used by two or more actually people, not alts, so this would be very hard for the Lindens to police fairly. I used to call for ISP tracking too until I was persuaded by none other than the Lindens themselves that this opens up too many examples of having to ding all kinds of people unnecessarily just for the crime of being on the same ISP as somebody else because they're in the same family or apartment building or dorm room.



Yes, I think it would be helpful for you to have that kind of area to do your rants in, because then those of us posting coherent thoughts, even if sharply expressedly, in legitimate discussions, would have the flames licking only at our feet instead of engulfing us : )



How would be adjudicating that? I'd be hard put to figure out how the Lindens are going to be able to do that without huge amounts of staff time.

A troll is someone who disrupts the peaceful flow of general agreement among the forum royales.

The fact is, we are trolls (well, I'm a troll). I just think as long as you don't resort to ad hominem, a troll is a fine thing to be.

"As you participate in this thread, I want you all to think of the movie The Exorcist. The demon has many names, it will use all the deception it can muster to derail us, and the closer we get to a good solution, the more screaming and vomiting it will spray on us."

You know, just when I think I have seen and heard it all, after an INSANE day of reading these forums, I find that it just gets more surreal still.

The Exorcist? A DEMON? Screaming and vomiting??

Let me take the opportunity to say here - once and clearly - that I absolutely despise the literal demonizing - literal! imagine it! - of one player by a group of other players. It is unkind, it is unfair, and it is worse than anything ANY individual player, no matter how horrible, could possibly do on these forums.

I disapprove of this, disavow it, and declare myself as distanced as possible from approval of any such notions by a self-appointed "Forum Committee," whether or not some of them may be well-meaning.

I invite anyone else who agrees with me, that this kind of bullying and power-grabbing is far worse than someone's tendency towards verbiosity and what some might consider crackpot theories, to speak up here as well. And if I'm alone in it - no matter.

I submit this to you: If they really DO think he is insane, crazy, mean, all that kind of stuff - why don't they politely and pitingly just sort of pretend he doesn't exist? Why this need to demonize him? To literally rewrite the forum rules to get rid of him?

They don't think he's crazy. They are THREATENED by him. Terms he has coined like FIC have the power they do precisely because they strike a chord of truth.

I got on this game to enjoy myself. I got on the forums to discuss the game, like I've done on the TSO forums for over two years.

Instead, I find myself watching a lynch mob in action. Forced to say something whether I enjoy this kind of drama or not. Just as I would be forced to say something - and to distance myself - if this were a real life lynch mob in action. And to get lynched myself for speaking up for him, which has also happened. If I were just some other new player, I would probably be confused and say nothing, but the problem is, see, I KNOW this guy. He's my friend.

NO ONE deserves this. Not Prok, not anybody. Lindens, it's this sort of thing that is going to drive away your new, enthusiastic and creative players.

Fellow players - if indeed you are reading this - take a stand. NO ONE DESERVES THIS. If nothing else, remember, the next person to get this treatment could be you.

coco

Hey, simmer down there Coco, it may be a lynch mob combined with Big Brother and Room 101 and Newspeak and Censorship LOL...but it's just the virtual version and so it can't hurt.

We need a FIC-only forum

<foam at mouth>

<spin head around / stab at crotch>

boo!

*pats Blaze on the head*

there there....

Leave the Hotline, LL land, specialized (building, scripting, technical issues etc) sections as they are now and moderate them relentlessly. Charge L$10 per 500 words (including quotes) for posting in all other sections

I agree with other posters who have suggested just ignoring demonic (Heh heh) posts etc but I think there could be some technical solutions that I'd also support (I'm not sure what they are yet).

If it's technically feasible to allow thread creators to delete posts, this could possibly create a Higher Standards area without requiring any more Linden involvement than usual. So the 3rd option could possibly amount to the 2nd.

I think the thing to do if you were going to allow thread-creators to delete posts is to make it optional at the first post screen and to make it very apparent to forum readers what option has been selected for the particular thread they are reading. This would allow them to ignore/boycott threads that they fear they may be censored in.

Overall, I'm not sure what my position is on allowing thread-creators to delete posts, but
here's a quick pro/con list that I came up with (I know there are other pros/cons that haven't occured to me yet):

Pros
===
1. In a way, this turns thread-creators into limited-power thread-moderators. If residents can moderate their own threads, this would ease the workload of the current LL forum moderators and reduce the number of flame-wars, TOS/CS violations, etc

2. The above would also act as a preventive. People who reply to your post will be more likely to reply in a reasonable way if they know that you have the power to delete their post if it does not contribute to the discussion

3. Thread-creators who have genuine questions to ask will be more likely to get genuine answers if they are able to remove anything that does not answer their question or at least contribute to the process in some way

These cons are tricky so I'll call them 'Tricky ones' instead of cons

Tricky Ones
========
1. Allowing thread-creators to delete any thread-posts, may produce threads with a single thread-creator opinion followed by 20 identical opinions ie. genuine debate is supressed. I think though that you will still have many threads where this is not the case. Any thread-creator who values opinions contrary to their own will allow their threads to flourish with debate etc. I think there are many residents like that.
Also, if someone supresses your opinion you could always post your own new thread on the topic. The problem with this however is that it may create situations where you have one thread and its (allowed) subposts and then 20 other single-post threads on the same topic Effectively just moving all the nuisance posts out of individual threads and into the main thread-listings. So your own threads might prove more useful to you but you now have tons more threads to read through in the General forums etc

2. There may be a disincentive to reply to posts when there's a possibility that all your time and effort will be wasted if the thread-creator decides to delete your post because they disagree. On the other hand, if you discovered that a particular thread-creator was regularly doing this to your posts you could put them on your ignore list and their future threads would have to survive without the benefit of your wisdom

Interesting
=======
I agree with the endorsement of blogs, but they clearly cut out a lot of the benefits of forums. Maintaining a list of your favourite blogs is a great deal of work and not very efficient. Many of the blogs you check may not have been updated since last time you visited, making your trip a waste of time. You can't cross-link posts very efficiently (if at all) or look at all the posts made by a single individual. So, you have posters with less accountability. There's heaps of other forum features you'd lose too (like the 'Ignore' function), notifications etc
I think you would end up with a blog list that mainly only contains other people in your 'monkeysphere' and you would miss out on a of lot ideas from newbies and people who only post very occasionally.

-- Neal Stewart

Coco,

Its admirable that you stand up for your friends, and I'm sure I can find no fault in that.

I interpreted Aimee's reasoning for this thread as a reaction to the overarching antagonistic tone that almost everyone here is guilty of using at some point or another, to a certain extent.

The overarching tone of the forum is, to me, one where I believe many feel they have to be pre-emptively nasty or rude, because they simply expect it will be coming to them sooner or later.

We are all guilty of contributing to what it has become - the posters, the moderators, everyone - and I feel Aimee is on the right track, asking for people to brainstorm ideas on how they would make the forums a more pleasant and productive place to post. To ask that people contributing to this thread ignore bating tactics from ANYONE is simply asking that people try to rise above the symptoms that currently plague this forum while we try to find solutions. (I grant you, her language was colorful, but I don't think she meant it to be malicious.)



And Prok: I completely understand your reluctance to place more moderating power at the hands of the moderators. And I can see why part of that reluctance stems from the anonymity given to mods by sheer virtue of thier Linden name. My addendum to my suggestion would then be this: if additional moderators are appointed for the forums, let them keep their inworld name, or appoint from outside the game. A skilled, unbiased moderator would absolutely be necessary for people to accept a more stringent application of forum rules.

Not that I'm an expert, but my experience is that forums run smoothly to the extent to which they are agressively moderated in an opinionated manner. The moderators need to be willing to make judgement calls and act on them with authority. People need to know what they can get away with and that crossing the line is pointless. So basically if the Lindens want to enforce a certain way for these forums to operate, they can. If they don't, I don't think it will change. I was encouraged recently to see more of a Linden POV coming through on the forums, especially from Pathfinder. A TOS is just too wishy-washy. It takes opinionated moderation. There's no reason a moderator can't say, "You're being disruptive. Figure it out or you're out of here."

Also, someone always feeds the trolls. Troll feeders are as much a part of the fabric of the universe as trolls are. And trolls can always feed each other (edit> and on SL's forums they can even feed themselves). The only person who can stop trolls and troll feeding is a moderator.

I guess my cynical answer is that a change relies on Linden moderation of the forums. Which is just my opinion, not pretending to be an expert.

Yeah, but what is disruptive?

Flat out insults or difference of opinion regarding objective issues?

Apparently Aimee cares less about flat out insults and more about difference of opinion.

blake, could you give a specific quoted example that leads you believe this is what she thinks? (<--EDIT: to respect Aimee's request for this thread, could you start another thread or PM me about it? I don't want to hijack more than I already have. Thanks.)


I would like to believe that as long as people are respectful - i.e., no flat out insults, among other things - that we can discuss differing opinions in a civil manner without hard feelings. Therefore in answer to your question, "flat out insults" are disruptive, while "difference of opinion" is not.

In fact, difference of opinion is crucial to even having a discussion or debate in the first place - otherwise the forum becomes an echo chamber for one mindset.

What I believe most people would like to see happen is a more friendly and respectful place to view these differing viewpoints - without insults, without counterproductive rhetoric and various questionable tactics.

I am intrigued by Chip's suggestion. Does anybody have more details on this system? Does it have a name?

I intend to include an option to the effect of "Simply don't feed the troll" when we put this to vote.

Thanks for your input!

I don't consider this cynical at all. To some degree I believe this is what I was saying when I suggested the NPR of SL forums. The Lindens would be expected to administer this section in exactly the way you described. The General forum would be left intact for those that fear for their free speech.

This is a great idea, it's a carrot. It probably would work best if implemented in conjunction with the third option IMO


I think this is not workable. It is not an an area I would ever post anything to for fear of violating some subtle rule. It also puts a clamper on debate if one is not free to say what one really thinks. This would significantly increase the complication of rules and change the tone of the debate IMO and therefore I am not for it.



This works for me. It is the stick to the carrot mentioned above.
I think that potential abusers of this kind of thing would be few, and easier to deal with by the Lindens given all the extra time these suggestions will give them.



Thanks for the great sugestions Aimee.

I think we should follow the examples of threads like this which push the envelope of immersion within our metaverse.

What's considered "disruptive" should be determined primarily by the Lindens, I'd like to see Lindens take a more active roll in forum civility

-I personally think thats an awesome idea, it will keep the people who dont want to become involved in forum drama away, and all the ones that enjoy "ranting and raving" can go do what they do best, and not worry about getting into trouble and such, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and it may not always be nice soo great idea Aimee!



Again this is also a great Idea, I know there have been times where I have started a forum that got out of hand, or went in the wrong direction, I think its only fare that the creator of the thread has full controll over it, if not partial!

Aimee your ideas are wonderful, and I really hope that they are listened to seriously and taken into consideration!

OH P.S I LOVE YOU!

thank you panda, for once again lightening my day

The closest thing I have seen to a workable system is slashdot, but then I don't spend any time on other forums.

Having a combination of moderators and a post-based reputation system is a decent solution. It's not so much censorship as people can set their quality meter for what they see at first glance. If you distrust the judgement of the community, it's all there for you to read.

I am pessimistic on all this however. Either we need a new forum technology or we need more active moderation from LL (with a greater willingness to break a few eggs -- no offense Eggy).

Creating an NPR forum is worth the effort. However, there are certain people who hide their scorn/condescension/insults in generalities and who would continue to do so in the new forum, all the while protesting their innocence and pointing to the denotations of their words, even where the connotations are obvious for anyone to see.

I also agree that trolls will be fed -- there's always someone who foolishly rises to the bait -- it's sort of a rotating position

Sorry this isn't more productive, but i've simply decided that I have to put some people on ignore or do-not-respond lists. A shame, really.

And that is not even exploring self-selection bias.

I have to agree that this doesn't seem to me to be a solid result.

And even if it were, Im confused about why basic courtesy is so far out of reach that we need to run this sort of problem-solving exercise.

We, as individuals, always control how we react to every single situation and individual we encounter. We make the choice to respond the way we do, be that with courtesy, generousity, and grace; or with acrimony, mean-spiritedness, and spite.

I don't think its the forums that need to be cleaned up; I think its the people using them that each need to examine their motives, their actions and their purposes here. And that begins with looking in the mirror folks; not saying "yes, that's right, 'so-n-so' needs to clean up their act". But saying "yes, I need to stop acting and reacting this way, and I think I should be the first one too, not waiting for everyone else, I should be a leader not a follower in this"

That is the solution I think we should be examining.

/end soapbox/