Does LL = George Soros?

From another thread...


First. good.

Now to the title of this thread. It was only barely tongue in cheek.

What was a Linden doing MODERATING such an event? Unless Ulrika misspoke or mischaracterized the participation of Jill, this essentially means that "the Lindens" explicitly condoned the event. The actions of one, here, definitely relfect on the group as a whole.

IMHO, Lindens have no in-world business discussing real world politics - especially at an event publicy and specifically stated to have a deliberate goal of fomenting unrest and action in the real world. Any and all such discussions and opinions the individual Lindens may have MUST be held private while they act as Lindens. Otherise, the mere title "Linden" will come to mean something quite different than employee of a company.

Opinions? Clarifications?

At this point, if true, I am very disappointed in/concerned about Linden complicity with this event. And no, I was not there. I am posting this solely as a reacion to Ulrika's comment/report on the event.

If the Lindens were merely moderating the event, then they are preforming their function. I'm sure the Lindens needed to be there just to make sure that the event went smoothly, with little abusive behavior as possible if that were to occur. Can you give more details Korg on how the Lindens were approving or condoning the event?

Now for my opinion!

unrest...complicity...mmm, sounds like you disapprove of the content of the event Korg. And knowing from your stances on RL politics, I'm sure you didn't approve of such an event. I'm sure you'll find every way to stamp out any critical thought, protest, speech that might be against your beliefs. However, in SL and in the USA (and other freedom loving countries), we won't let people stamp out our right to protest, speak out against, or to criticize the people that govern us.

I love George Soros. He's my hero. If only all of those uber wealthy were so willing to put their money where their mouth is, the world would be a better place, no?

But at any rate, most IT people are liberal on social issues, and conservative on financial issues (as per some stuff I saw on the news, at least). Are you really surprised that the lindens are Soros supporters? And that assumes that there were there to support the event, rather than just moderate it.... which isn't really clear imo.

With all that said, I'm not really surprised to see Lindens anywhere... they show up in all kinds of places.

Why? Politics is the process by which we come into agreement in RL. The consequences of political issues may be as crucial as whether the human race is even around in five hundred years.

Some people want to use Second Life to escape from the real world, but don't we already have enough ways to do that? Some of us want to see what virtual reality can do to help us address RL issues. It is the open connection between Second Life and RL that makes it unique!

So, IMO, that is exactly what they should be doing.

And if you want to escape RL and don't want to hear about RL politics in SL, then don't goto events that talk about RL!

omg, freedom!

I will also audaciously and inappropriately mention with subtle undertones that Linden Lab is a corporation in the heart of a very liberal center of this nation. You can't live in San Fran without being political.

I see nothing wrong with it. Infact, the Lindens not being a 501 IRS non-profit company means they are NOT restricted in anyway to talk about Kerry.

Actually Hank, you do not realize the whole story behind this event, or why Korg was involved with input about it (as were others). For a heads up, you may want to check out this thread: /120/a6/26888/1.html

And as to the original post, I felt like the Lindens were there to strictly be back up in case any griefing happened. They tend to attend high profile or controversial events (when they can) for this purpose. So I am certain that is why they were there last night. My opinion of course.

What does Soros have to do with anything? Is he anti-war? I like him 'cause he's pro-pot.



Your damn right the actions of one reflect on the group and it was total bullshit they put a POLICE PRESENCE at that event. I don't know if it was requested or what but that was down right offensive. People have the right to talk about peace without the cops standing behind us with guns (Linden, joking about riot gear and hauling away protestetors - NOT FUNNY. Cops KILL PROTESTORS - it is not a joking matter). Stay at the welcome area. You have NEVER policed my events so why were you policing that event. There to stop "griefers?". Does your IM function not work? We could send you an IM if we needed your help.

"cant wear a tshirt because your it would reflect on your employer". Really? Does your employer make TANKS and BOMBS? Your employer doesn't want a message of PEACE associated with it? Give me a break.

Their presence was a total insult to anyone there to talk about peace and they dampened the pro-peace message. The next time I go to a peace rally in SL, if the Lindens don't put on a tshirt and join the convo, I will leave. I wanted to hear an idea from Lindens on PEACE but no, instead they just acted like they were there to "keep the peace". Ya right. WE WERE THERE TO KEEP THE PEACE.





I'm on to this crap Korg. You and Kathy must collect a paycheque from the same people. You both TRIED to derail any attempt at discussion about ending the war. Formenting unrest. Puuuhlease.

a) I was there to show support to a movement who's message is one of peace. You don't have to fight, you can just talk about peace (you and Kathy try to make ppl fight, Lindens joking about RIOT GEAR was not condusive to peace)

b) I thought there was going to be brainstorming of ideas to get our message of peace to the rest of the world (you and kathy BOTH tried to HIJACK the peace rally to get the topic OFF of peace an back to BUSH vs KERRY).

c) We tried to show support for each other, all together, holding hands in the name of PEACE. (THanks to you and Kathy, that was hard. I know you didn't show..mm... But you both did a good job of making sure there the tone of divisivness you created hung in the air all night).

d) When the topic of the draft and the "no-exit" military you have came up, the topic quickly changed and was hardly discussed.

e) Someone (prolly canadian cause there were so many there...) mention healing the RIFT and this sparked more fight. Yes, you've been beaten up on in the past and there will be no healing. So send an email to your rich leaders and stop fighting with the guy next door. It going to take generations of education at a young age before the two sides get along, but the first step is to demand spending be directed towards healing this rift.

f) Why did someone appoint themselves "devils-advocate" and start out talking about Bush? Who are you? devils-advocate at a peace rally? You're going to tell us why war is sometimes ok?

The element that would derail any discussion of peace was there in full force. I'm onto you.

A pro peace rally has NOTHING to do with unrest. A pro-peace rally helps END the unrest caused by war.

It is my opinion that the next discussion needs an itinerary and a moderator to keep people talking about anti-war ideas and to stop the element that would derail any attempt at discussing peace.

Kerry's policy would have been to get more "BUY-IN" from other countries. Ohh, just use fancier words (read:more money) to convince other countries to send troops.

Yea you wanna fight, you wanna fight, you wanna fight, that's clear. But fight the politicians, not each other. (By that I mean email them, daily). Just because the guy next to you voted for Bush, does NOT mean he agrees with everything Bush does. Just because someone voted for Bush does NOT mean they are pro-war, pro-killing.

Anti-Bush does not mean we are against you if you voted for Bush. It means we want his policy to change. Are you sheep? Don't let people like Kathy and Korg do this to the world. You can have your candidate lose and still send an email to Bush and let him know you think the war is wrong.

And to everyone else, if ANYONE, EVER tries to convince you that their candidate is better than yours, DEMAND they cease and desist the theivery of your free will.

Lindens are residents who are paid by LL, they are there to help you. However, they arent all robots, and do have a mind of their own, ya know? Next time you do anything in world to try to help keep a discussion civil, ill be sure to jump and make a thread about it.

Okay. I have my flame retardent suit on... as I read the responses.. otally expected considering who chose to respond. While I will make a few comments... most of the responses are merely flames or diatribes, so I will not waste my time (or yours) with them.

1. Soros stated publicly he was going to try to buy the election for Kerry...or words to that effect. I have no respect for that attitude. I am unsure if he is currently an American citizen, though I know he is Hungarian-born. IF he is not a citizen, then he should keep his money and his hands/opinions out of American domestic politics. The analogy to LL is that regardless of what they are trying to do here in cyberspace, their own TOS/corporate statements disclaims a political agenda for the real world as far as in world activity is concerned.

2. A Linden's presence at any event is tantamout to condoning it. However, I did notmake that point previously. I specifically said that IF Jill was moderating the event, then she/LL stepped over the line IMO. That is not their job while on duty AFAIK. The event was not a Hamlet-type event specifically sponsored by LL. This was an event organized and held by specific individuals touted as a political rally. IF any LL employee acted as anything other than a griefing control agent, then that action explicityly states that LL condones and supports such activity AND future participation in such events by LL and its personnel.

3. This thread has nothing o do with my real world politics. I won' discuss them in this thread as that is a hijack and irrelevant to my point.

4. "Politics is the process by which we come into agreement in RL," Yeah. So what? That has nothing to do with my point/the point of the thread - deliberate interference or suport of an SL resident's political agenda by LL/LL employees.

5. "...it was total bullshit they put a POLICE PRESENCE at that event..." Hmm, interesting to hear that from the other side. So, you didn't care for it either? Were you there? Did you say anything? If not, why not? (as for "cops kill protestors"... take it back to real life.. this is virtual crap.) Jack - you are so far in the extreme in your post, I can't even try to respond furher except to say that I did not try to hijack anything... I wasn't even there. I am not a part of the group. My involvement in this entire fiasco had to do with a misdirected post in the wrong forum (Off-topic vice the prokjects forum or Events). I said what I had to say about it thenleft even that thread. I also said I wouldn't be there. (Oh, an ddon't throw the f**ing "war is okay?" crap out anymore.. that is really a ridiculous ah hominem. I never implied any such thing.

6. As for Ryen's... (edited because it's just not worth the crap that wil come in response).

Lindens have their own, non-linden accounts. This is by LL's own admission. Their linden account is supposed to be a representative of the company, not of their own opinions. If they want to express an opinion, it shouldn't be with their linden-face.

If the lindens were on hand for peace-keeping duties, thats one thing. It was probably prudent with such a volatile (On both sides) event. Though if this were the case, I would expect them to be invisible unless needed.(I'm assuming here lindens can make themselves invisible. I've never heard an official statement either way, but I've never encountered a guide/GM/liason/etc system for a game that hasn't included that option... It's basicly a must)

If the lindens (any of them) were there *participating* or "endorsing" the event, however, then we start to have a problem.

I don't care what the event was about, I wasn't there, and make a concerted effort to *avoid* RL politics in SL. I would feel exactly the same if it was a Pro- or Anti- Bush rally. The Lindens *are* people, yes. They have every right to an opinion, and they are *more than welcome* to participate in any political event they wish, *as their non-linden avatar*. The linden tag gives them legitimacy and authority, a legitimacy and authority that lends itself automaticly to any event they attend.

Yes I held my comments until the end, but I let them know their militant presense insulted me.

HOWEVER. I am not on the "other side" as you subliminally put it. You are quick to put people into a "side". Well I say to you sir, stop the theivery of my free will. I'm on MY side and MINE alone. I am against war and violence. Stop trying to divert attention away from a message of PRO-PEACE.



Yes - every time I see this element take any given topic and try to force people onto into "Sides" and make them fight, there is always some planned, coreographed effort. I totally agree.




I will stop when you say : No war is not okay. Picking sides is not okay. Fighting is not okay. When you can prove you are pro-peace, I'll stop asking.

The title of the event included the phrase *Anti-Bush* did it not?

Okay. Fine.. but for now.. go hijack another thread will you?

I made what I think is a cogent argument and you are really wasting bandwidth on something totally irrelevant to the thread's purpose.

Yes.

And I'm saying the argument you are making in this thread is CLEARLY an extension to your attempt to force people to pick a side and draw attention away from the message of peace.

Yes.
Antiwar Rally - Anti-Bush Rally!
http://secondlife.com/events/event-view.php?id=20490&date=1099987200
Description: The Social Democratic Faction (SDF) will be holding an antiwar, anti-Bush rally in Neualtenburg (a politics-safe city) in the sim of Anzere to mark the one-week anniversary of the U.S. elections. Join us to discuss the future of the antiwar, anti-Bush movement in world and out. A free "No W" button will be given to all participants!

Come see what the forum controversy is all about!

NOTE: The opinions of the rally organizers are NOT shared by all members of the Neualtenburg group. In fact some of them are in complete disagreement with content and act of this rally, which is what makes Neualtenburg so darn cool.
Hosted By: Ulrika Zugzwang
Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2004 7:00PM
Time: 7:00PM - 8:00PM (60 minutes)
Category: General Fun
Cover Charge? No


Note...That is the edited version.. not the original event posting which did not mention the SDF "sponsorship".

And I am saying the title of the event is what you should be railing against as it seems to fit the description of what you dislike. I will go so far as to say that title is probably why there was a Linden presence and why the whole topic is so controversial. I doubt anyone here thinks war is a good thing. I lost my father in vietnam, a DEMOCRATS war which was escalated by another democrat. This is one reason I too am tired of the damned lines people draw when trying to assign blame.

Go back and reread my initial post here. This is about the Linden presence and possibly condoning the event by particpation. I notice that that has NOT been cleared up - by Lindens nor by people who were actually there.

Did Jill "moderate" or not?

What was Hanye's role?

I could care less what you or (almost) anyone else feels conerning war - it simply doesn't matter to me. You perosnally haven't got a clue what my own feelings are - that much is obvious - despite the fact that I have made a few posts alluding to my feelings about war.

Jack.. go elsewhere for a fight. I am not in the mood.

I was responding to Jack, sorry for not indicating that. I think you and I are in agreement here.

I thought so.. but wasn't sure.

Having been at this event for at least part of it, I can clear up some confusion here. Jill did not "moderate" in the sense that she lead the discussion or offered opinions or even participated in the content of what was going on. She was present and observed and her only comments were along the lines of reminding people that this was a PG sim when the language got a little racy. I suspect the idea was just to have a Linden present to pre-empt any griefing or TOS violations, nothing more.