Land Renter's Petition

This is a Petition being made for renters of land owned by Anshe Chung. This is not being made to be accused or flamatory in any way whatsoever, or of negative merit outside of the facts being stated. What this IS, however, is a way for people to describe wrongdoings that they believe have befallen them, so that it can be determined if any actual wrongdoings have taken place.

I have chosen to place this on the Secondlife forums to further this concept. Only secondlife players, whom are traceable by their accounts, may post here. For this reason, I ask that all posts be honest and accurate to their fullest, as this is a serious issue. I also ask that the facts be left without side comments that can be considered flamatory.

If you have had an experience with Anshe Chung in which you believe you were wronged, please describe when, where, how, and how much you were wronged for. If there is a further reason that you believe you were wronged -- such as a Linden to Dollar amount, that is okay to post because it furthers the reasoning as to why your claim is serious. You are welcome to explain how this has made you feel. But you are not welcome to go and say how it makes you feel about other people. Please only post if you yourself had dealings that went sour. If someone you know has talked about this, refer them here, but please, do not post for them yourself.

I recognize that there is a LOT of stuff out there, for good and bad about Anshe Chung. But this is not the place for it. Leave those ideals and feelings outside of this thread, and let this be reserved for factual statements ONLY.

Again, because of the feelings surrounding Anshe, not all of these signings may be factual. But the ones that are can be traced to a point, if a point is given, and at the very least, can be looked into to further ensure that these things do not continue in the future.

Lastly, the reason that I am singling out Anshe for this petition is that I am trying to clear up these cases in which she is involved in. Currently, I have two people that are claiming she is taking a total $168 of their IRL money wrongfully, over SL land. That's serious, and I am wondering if anyone else has any seperate cases that are similar.

This is going to take a little time to evolve, and for the petition to become established. So, I am asking of the Lindens, some time to prove that this case is worthy to be petitioned. I am not doing this as a flame thread, nor do I support any flaming against Anshe. I am also hoping that Anshe and her supporters can let me provide a case under those conditions, without barking at people whom post in here, or trying to correct the claims of everyone that posts. This is to be an objective way of stating claims on a PETITION, not arguing it as it is formed.

If anyone else feels that a Land Owner they are or were renting from, has been wronged, feel free to message me on here or on in game, and give an explanation as to what happened. If I recieve enough 'complaints' to open a petition, I will notify the involved people stating so, and do so.

Thank you for your time and patience, and I hope that people can be mature about this.

Hello there
RedFox Costello here:


I want to state this to. I bought some land off of Anshe of the amount of $33000L = $128RL. She was really nice at frist when I got the land off of her. When I needed her help with some thing I would page her and she started to bitch about me wanting to chat with her about some thing about the land I got from her. She call me a stalker and bitch about every thing I did on my land. I told here that I want all my $L back that I pay for land. She told me she would not give me the $33,000L back only $16K I told her no I wanted my money back for the land because of the way she was acking to me. I really don't want any to do with herany more. I told her I was going it up with Paypal and she told me this "Anshe Chung: Since you threatened PayPal chargebacks, which is basically fraud, we are no longer able to engage in any transactions with you. Meaning she is not going to take any more tier fee from me and take back my land that bought from her. I will not get any thing out of I will be loseing lost of money. Witch this would be stealing on her part. I really think the lindens should do some thing about this. She will only sell the land the furrys and most of all the fur out there really disklike anshe witch in this case I am out no matter where I go. I have untail the 18 of sept to keep the land untail she take in back from me. With out giving me any thing. I did tell her she was stealing from me. She will not IM me any more or even speak to me. Not sure what to do at his point.


PSlease help

I sold my land in mallard to the same person so i could move closer to the furry community i love 'the forest' where i have many friends. She was nice to me when i bought land from her. When i moved to Tiger Creek I allowed 3 other people to live with me whom i will refrain from saying there names for privacy. I didn't mind the lag. But i found myself not going home very much. I allays stay in the forest so i had no need for my own land. So i decided to sell it back. I didn't want to go through the hassle of finding a buying or waiting for one either, then having to email anshe to have the subscription changed to someone else. But as soon as anshe read my selling land info she handed me a notecard that said linden labs revoked her rights to buy land or something which i disbelieve. So i canceled my subscription to the land so i wouldn't be billed for land i didn't want. She came out 2 days later and took the land back when i still had a few weeks left PAID on it. The billing period won't be for some time.

So technically the land still belongs to me but yet I'm denied the ability to build or so anything on it and i have a huge white ANSHE CHUNG.COM sign smack dab in the middle of it. This is very un professional. All the MMORPG's even linden labs at least give a secure plan. You pay then play. If you don't pay, your suspended until you do. So my addition to this proposal is watch who you buy from. I was ripped off. why should you? I lost about $50 USD worth of linden plus the remaining of the $25 land fee to a land baron. IRL this would be fraud. Linden labs probably cant do anything about this matter but atleast we the residents should do something. So thats why im signing this petition. We need to band together and say enough is enough. Not to mention ive lost nearly L$1 this week on vendor purchases that didnt work on various vendors. i dought its the fault of the owners. I think theres a new bug that prevents items from transfering.

Tick...tick...tick...

I should remind you that it's against the TOS to make threads or posts specifically about or targeting a single user...

I don't have many suggestions about how to deal with your current problems, because there seems litttle recourse from anyone if people have made private arrangements with another player.

I wanted to suggest to anyone who wishes to rent land that they check out Hiro Queso's rental land. He doesn't charge an upfront fee, just a monthly rental, but you can have land deeded to any group and therefore can do anything you need to do yourself. There are residential sims, zoned sims, commercial sims. Some of the grouped islands have a very strong community going too.

I have been living very happily in Rapture for many months, and have now rented a commercial plot in Temotu too from him. I haven't heard of anyone having any problems with Hiro's rentals, and so I can confidently recommend them . I'd be happy to send information to anyone who is interested.

Hope your problems get a satisfactory resolution.
Cali

Agreed! Hiro in a wonderful landlord. I still don't understand why anyone would pay an up-front fee for owning land they are clearly renting...

I wish to hear about more HAPPY LANDLORD TALES! Encouraging to hear this about Hiro. It's sad when someone is looking around for personal experiences and doesn't get to make a better-informed choice in this regard... and then I end up reading or hearing about sad tales afterwards. O well, things are growing. FYIYMMV.

I would counter that the original poster has created a thread requesting fair comment on a Linden sanctioned player service, that the "single user" in question is more like a corporation than a natural person, and applaud the bravery of those who have chosen to make such open affidavits possibly at their personal in-game peril. Had I any personal experience to bear on the matter, I would post as well.

I'll also note that I've been impressed with Hiro's candor and the good said about him here in recent days to check out his offerings despite not having any actual need for such.

Or, I could simply be sardonic and claim that you are just saying that because you are a Portuguese egg.

First let me say that all 3 people who try to single me out here are closely related friends.

RedFox Costello bought land in Tiger Creek on June 13th, about 3 months ago. He used to make me busy with frequent customer inquiries, which I usually answered swiftly. One day, however, I was busy in one meeting and not able to answer his IMs. At that time several staff members were online, whom he could have contacted. He did receive auto-reply to contact other staff while I was in busy mode.


At the the time I was able to read his IMs they had already turned from something like "Hi" to "come help me!" to "ANSWER NOW !!!" to "BUY BACK MY LAND NOW FOR WHAT I PAID YOU !!!" before I had even had chance to answer.

I then answered him in polite way that I am busy and he should contact other staff. I also provided him information about how to sell land to other residents. He ignored that I was busy and kept IMing me again and again for more than one hour. I finally asked him to please stop stalking me that way.

I try my best to serve my customers, but I am nobody's slave and don't follow anyone's commands, especially not when somebody comes and orders me to accept some land deal at his terms. I am trying very hard to serve all of my many customers in person, but sometimes I am busy and have to refer people to staff I employ.

What followed next was that RedFox began to threaten me with PayPal chargebacks if I don't buy his land for what he had paid 3 months ago. This is when I decided it is no good idea to do any further transactions with this person, no matter at what terms, because he may just take the money, then chargeback anyway. Furthermore, he threatened me that he would be going to buy one sim on his own for the only purpose to ruin Tiger Creek. He was then seen to be talking to other land owners and renters in the sim, trying to convince them to leave. This is when I filed abuse to inform Linden Lab about RedFox.

As for Yiffy Yaffle, who is close friends of RedFox, he stopped paying land tier. In addition the group that was holding the land had been dissolved. If you stop paying tier in mainland sims the land reverts back to Governor Linden. You stop being land owner if you don't pay your taxes. In Dreamland sims it reverts back to me instead of Governor Linden. Every day there are thousands of sqm of land in Second Life that revert that way because people cancel tiers. Usually these are people who don't want to go through the effort of finding one buyer for their land, such as Yiffy in this case.

I think one very basic problem here is that two people buy something, then expect to even months later be able to sell it back to the seller for the price they originally bought it for. They know they can't do it with Governor Linden, but they think they can strong arm me instead.

As one sidenote, it is also possible to rent land in Dreamland, rather than buying it. You then just pay weekly or monthly like in other rental communities in SL. Especially in Tiger Creek there are quite a few people who chose the rental option. Most people, however, still choose to buy and own their land, one advantage being lower monthly fees compared to rental. Most tier sizes in Dreamland, for the same money, offer more sqm both compared to mainland land ownership and compared to so-called "rent-for-tier" sims.

This is actually not the case. As long as tier charges are being paid for, both land ownership and customer support are active.

Alright. Let me say this. Anshe, get off this thread. Your post was specifically against what was stated in the beginning post.

Second, this is about more than three people. This is about many people, not all of which are awake at 3:30 in the morning, and some people like to do something called sleep.

Third, this is not a place to be advertising your own businesses. Please do not do so.

Fourth-- Eggy, you are right. TLO prohibits singling out a user in a thread. I'm not singling her out in an effort to be negative against her. Rather, there are a series of events in which case she may or may not have done unfaithful business with other people, which resulted in online and realistic losses. As long as people keep this Anti-flame, and stick to the point of the petition, it should remain anti-flame, and people can look into it and determine it for themselves.
If this is still against Linden policy, then the Lindens will remove it, and that will be that.


Now, in response to Anshe's post, I will also say this;
I'm looking forward to a more detailed post from Red come this Sunday. I am also looking to see if anyone has like claims of his. However, for what you have stated about Yiffie, you are in no way denying that you terminated her land in mid-rent. It actually APPEARS that you tricked her into giving up her land rentals to HELP you, knowing what the outcome would be, despite the fact that she had paid you for a time on that plot longer than what you allowed her.
Now that in itself, I can tell you, is not good business practitioning. Not only that, but if you continue posting in this thread trying to argue yourself against further petitioners, and I can catch flaws in what you say that give you any wrongdoing, I WILL rip you apart. As long as this stays a petition, there will be no arguing, but you have to respect the honesty of this thread and get your tail OUT.
Now, I am not going to treat every case as a trial against you or factual simply because someone posts it. I actually have a good idea what to look for, because I have been posting on forums in high-tension conflict related threads for the past seven years. Now, I haven't always been right, and I sure as Nifleheim, haven't always been wrong. And MAYBE this is going to be one of the times that I am wrong. But that still doesn't turn away the fact that these claims SEEM relevant, and with you posting here, that adds to their claim. If they are not relevant, they will prove themselves that way.
If there is something that you extremely want to post, you can be respectful, use my inbox, and ask permission to post it.

I am trying to keep this thread reasonable as much as for you, as for everyone else.
Red and Yiffie are to ignore these last two posts of yours. I do not want to see people begin flaming on what is right and wrong from your posts, because that is argumentism, and not petitionism.

You are doing yourself a large disservice with these posts.

I don't understand the unwillingness to see the big picture benefits which the success of any individual person participating in the development of this place brings to the survival of SL overall. Developers and entrepeneurs in all areas are absolutely necessary to making this place vital and complete. I appreciate the contributions of all the various factions: content creators, scriptors, event hosts, and, yes, even land developers. I think it's great that the opportunity exists to invest time and effort and earn some cash, whether it be enough to offset or cover your costs all the way to paying for some RL expenses including but not limited to gas, a home remodeling project, extended family in China, and even a penchant for prime rib & sushi.

Anshe could have dumped the mainland in favor of Dreamland but I'm guessing that she understands that the health of the mainland grid is the basis of everyone's success. Had the land barons not been around these past few months to carry the tier for all the vacant parcels, it would have severely hampered LL's progress. When the going got tough, it seemed like a lot of people retreated to the better performance of their own private islands or simply tiered down and went off to play WOW.

The one who started the thread and then told Anshe she had to ask her permission to post in it is the one doing herself a large disservice.

coco

If myself, trying to prevent this petition from turning into that of an argument -- and having Anshe directly break the rules laid out to keep arguments at bay -- should indeed be considered a diservice, then so be it.
The problem is that I am breaking my own rules in giving her the opportunity to post here, which I feel she, being an involved person, most definitly has the right to do. However, if we are going to prevent people from badmouthing other people, then we have to draw a line as to what is acceptable or not.
If Anshe chooses to accept that there has to be a line made for the peace of this thread, then that is fine. But if she doesn't, then there isn't much that I can do about it, is there?

I would just like to keep this thread directed towards a petition, instead of an argument, if you may understand that.

I work for Anshe Chung Group. I have been very impressed with this organization and have been selling and renting land for over a month. I have rented and sold approcimately 75 properties for Anshe Chung during this time. I have heard all the nasty accusations and no doubt there may be one or two legitimate concerns among them. I have found AnsheChung to be honest, understanding and responsive whenever I have brought an issue to her. She is also a firm and tough businesswoman and that sometimes that gets people to show their envy of a successful Asian woman. Anshe Chung is far from perfect (and who is?), but I have found in my dealings with her that she is fair and honest. We seldom always get our way in life. I feel sad that some of these incidents have happened with some misunderstanding, since I have so much respect for the work that this organization does and for the clients that we deal with.

If I thought for one minute that Anshe Chung was a dishonest person or organization I would not be a part of it. I'm proud to be working with her.


By the way, just to set the record straight, there is no upfront fee to rent land from Anshe Chung on Dreamland.

MQ

I work for Wal*Mart and I think Rob Walton (successor to the late Sam Walton) is possibly the second coming of the messiah.

Not that I'm biased or anything.....

Is this an attempt maybe to start the most hypocritical thread in the history of the forums?

Some disgruntled customer starting a thread with the obvious purpose to bash the person by whom s/he felt badly treated, asking other customers to share similar stories - completely objective of course - and protesting when the accused tries to defend herself? This is too funny to be meant seriously. This is a parody, yes?

Hmmm you post something obviously inflammatory (no matter how much you claim thats not the intention, not too hard to pierce that veil) and honestly beleive trying to dictate who can post will work? Apparently you havent spent much time in ANY forums since dont know that when a bone is thrown its going to get jumped on.



Not very realistic in theforums but this would be acceptable if was enforced equally. There has been outsiders (outsiders as to the people you asked to voice in thread) posting in thread; including for a service (who many seem to think highly of) in compeititon with Anshe, yet the only person you bark when enters the fray is who......

When you consider that I have had no dealings with Anshe, business or otherwise, besides this chat that I am about to upload via screenshots, sure. But take a moment to look at the parody of the first, why don't you? My Lindens are located in the top right of the screen. I had previously given my 4,500L to Nexxus Ambassador of Furnation Prime, not even half an hour before, to help them get a new drive for their server. 3,000L of that was from people I had recruited into the game, and the other was money that I have saved up since I joined up in July.

(edited)

And yeah. I'm missing a part of it since my printscreen didn't work. If anyone has the part where she stated that I was slandering her, and that I was boughten off by people to hurt her, feel free to put it up somewhere or toss me it.

Hm. To reply to the other post;



Yes I did tell other people to stay out of it. However, those other people did not directly come after me, telling me whom I was and what my relationships were, without having ever met me before. Besides telling them to buzz off, there isn't much else that I can respond by doing, besides sticking that tidbit in front of their noses, now is there?

Hmmm....might be safer to keep out of this, as I have been accused of being an Anshe-hater before. Unfairly in my opinion.

This thread worries me, and it certainly looks likely it may violate the TOS, and is likely to be removed anyway.

On the other hand, the TOS is meant to protect individuals from abuse, not big business from criticism.

The only thing which could maybe justify this thread being allowed is if it revealed a substantial number of individual and unrelated allegations, with a sufficient common pattern to convince any reasonable person that there were definite and substantial cause for concern.

Personally, I do not find the content of the two we have so far terribly convincing, and both seem to contain an unfounded sense of entitlement, in that they seem to believe they have the right to full-price buyback on demand. Which I am pretty sure was never in Anshe''s contract.

I never liked the pseudo-purchase nature of these land-lease rentals, and my objections earned me I think Anshe's displeasure. Half my objection was the fear clients would not fully understand them, or absorb the stated refusal of LL to offer them any recompense, or get involved at all, if they entered such an unenforceable contract and it went wrong.

But the misunderstandings here don't seem subtle. How could they get this sell-back-on-demand idea? Or not understand they had to find a third party to sell their lease rights to ?

Could I make two suggestions.

1. Since this is all likely to disappear any moment, if you want it to survive, relocate it to a non-SL forum, and just give us a link.
2. The only thing which could justify this is the rapid appearance of lots of other complaints as described above. Lets see if they appear.

So my suggestion is:

Lets none of us post here at all except the genuine complainers. Give them, say, two days to do so. Unless we get more than ten, forget it - probably normal "ok-business" level. If we get more, then let the discussion and argument and assessment break out, and allow Anshe a refutation. Be aware there is no real possibility that the Lindens will get involved at all. They warned about the danger of these contracts, and made it clear it was absolutely "caveat emptor". (Whats the latin for renter?) The Lindens view was clearly put long ago - this is Anshe's land, Anshe's sim, anyone who thinks they own any, or have any related enforceable rights, is deluding themselves. Anshe is queen. She does as she pleases. Every tenant needs to understand it.

So how about it ? No-one but complainers for two days, and see what we get.

And have a contingency plan to get it off the SL server, where it probably should not be anyway.

My guess is it'll peter out at about 5 or 6 complaints, and none of them very convincing, like the first two. But I could be wrong.

Ok, a few posts for/against the two day posting moratorium I am suggesting for all but the complainers themselves? Then maybe give it a try ? Is it a good way forward ?

Um... what you have just done.. is a violation of the SL TOS... wow uncool to post chats...

I have been dealing with Anshe for over a year, and NOT once have I had an issue..(ok only once over a floating dingy in front of my house )I find her to be very professional and has gone out of her way to help her customers. If she is extremley busy, you may have to wait for an answer. Thats why she has her Angels. Use the resources she has made available to you.

People have complained about her from the signs to the amount of land she has. She has tried to conform to the wants and wishes of the SL community, but people are still not happy.

Just like RL -- if you buy a house and try to sell it a year later... you think you are going to get the same price? NO, the market will dictate what you will get and what the value is.

If Anshe was such a bad business person and dishonest.. would she be where she is today?
I think not ...

Just my thoughts

~Tya

Actually, Yiffy was trying to find a third party to sell her land to, and she did not have an idea that Anshe had to buy back the land. She merely wanted an opportunity to get her money back. However, Anshe repossesed the land upon hearing this.

For the latter, I have been trying to set up petition links in other dreams. However, the front of these efforts have failed, since simulator owners, like those of Furnation Prime, refuse to allow this to be brought up in their simulator.

So, yeah. I do need to get more people to sign the petition. I've actually had a few people IM me in SL. But there is still the need to get the word out and allow people the opportunity to present such claims.

That is where I can see the first of my mistakes with this. I should have made an off SL site first, where I could have gathered people together for a petition, before posting this on here. You may have my apologies for not doing so. But the mistake has also already been made, and unless Linden sees this as breaking the TOS, I don't intend to shut it down. I'm not flaming, and I am not trying to create hardships for people. But if people have been wronged, I wanted to make it a point that it has to stop.


On another note, I was also informed today that due to my own landlord and some of the other tenants, my internet may be revoked sometime this month. I'm not sure when, or if it even will, but you have my notice that for a few days, I may not be able to post.