Manners Please Timothy !

Whatever happened to politeness and manners ?

I have noticed over the years that being polite and having good manners is rapidly becoming a thing of the past in RL.
Luckily I live in a country where the trends of the rest of the world take an age to catch on, so my experience of bad manners is usually restricted to my trips abroard ( and, sadly, back to my home land ).

However since I have been in SL I have noticed there are two very definite camps of players - the polite and good mannered and the down right ignorant.

Example in point ( which made me write this ).

There I was in my SL apartment happily working on a script for an object when all of a sudden a figure appears in the right of my screen.
Gave me a bit of a start I can say - like RL I am not accustomed to people just walking into my house ( It is not near a mall and has no signs saying shop etc etc, and in fact the land name even has "RESIDENTIAL" in the title.

This person - without a "bye or leave" just walked up to me and popped out "hi" (OK saying "hi" isnt a hanging offense - even if the person is uninvited into your home)
As I was in the middle of something I politely said "Excuse me - this is my house".
Said person then walks calmly off and says "And it sucks too !" before exiting stage right.

If this happened in RL I would be livid ( and would probably have phoned the police by now ) - "but it is only a game".

It is only a game where people think it is totally ok to throw you abuse and bad mouth you for just looking at them ( or not ) - for talking to them ( or not ) for standing on them ( or not ).
What happened to manners ?

I mean if someone comes up to me whilst I am building and says "Hi, how yer doing" I will engage in a conversation and, if busy, say "sorry cant talk sorta busy" and we both part friendly, happy, happy, peace on earth and good will to all.

However recently more has been the case of someone coming up and saying "Your edge is out and the texture sucks - I can fix it if you want" , "what's that rubbish your making", or just coming up (on private property) and running all over the thing I am building touching everything in sight ( It can be a royal pain if you are scripting and testing something ).

Saying "excuse me - could you leave that alone please I am still working on it" gets you a negative rating and verbal abuse.

I despair.

( I used to work in a company that had a "red hat" policy - anyone wearing a red hat was busy and didnt want to be disturbed.
I am tempted to create a hat saying "please do not disturb" for my Av - but know full well that as soon as I put it on someone will come up and say "whats that sign for" )

The final reason I dispair is that SL is supposedly populated by adults - If I were witness to this behaviour from a youngster I would in some ways forgive it and put it down to social inexperience - but from adults ?

I cannot believe there are 45,000 supposedly intelligent people out there ( they have PC's and have worked out to log on so I am granting them the benifit of the doubt re. intelligence ) who have the manners of a pig ( sorry pigs - just an expression - pigs are social animals ) and actually feel ok to treat other people like a doormat.

Here ends the rant - Bring back good manners

"A smile is something to share with your friends - an insult is something you keep for yourself"

It's called "larger public". The unwashed barbarian hordes know SL exists and more and more play it.

The people in the example you gave have problems...

I hope there comes a time in SL where folks can have genuine privacy when they desire it - but without negatively impacting other users in the process.

In order to acheive that it will take community pressure, and a development effort from LL. Thusfar, its seems that other issues perpetually take a higher priority, and this is one thing that never makes it to the top of the list.

Probably rightfully so - I'll gladly sacrifice my privacy for stability. But its important to note that there are a lot of 'social' type issues that could be resolved if true privacy were possible in SL.

This is the big clue.

SL isn't poulated by adults, LL has no real way to check if folks are adults other than behaviour. My guess is that almost all of the idiots you described were under 25, possibly under 18.

That being said, yes... manners have gone down the toilet in the last 20 years or so to a (much) larger degree then the entire hundred years previous to that.

IMO it's about the disolution of cultures and communities under the influence of world-wide capitalism and free markets. It is also about the domination of the planet by American "culture" which is based on individual forthrightness and "moxie," and eschews politeness as a matter of course.

Politeness is about rules and "what is right," and if there was/is a culture anywhere on earth that thinks rules are for the weak, and what is "right" is variable and subjective, it is the modern American culture under capitalism.

Could this be another cultural misunderstanding, perhaps, Adriana ? I don't know how the words "Excuse me" resonate in your culture, but in mine, and in that context, they are anything but polite. Quite likely to lead to the response you got, except with a very well adjusted individual.

Remember, in chat we have no voice tones to modulate the bald words, and correct misunderstanding. The bald words could easily be taken as highly rejecting and sarcastic in some cultures. Certainly so in the UK.

As SL gets more international, subtle communication problems like this are likely to grow.

Like the famous case from international diplomacy, in which the French representative said
"Je demande...."
And the foolish Britisher said
"Demand ? Demand ? ....You'll demand nothing......"

Probably apocryphal, but a good story.

Ellie, while I agree that it is incredibly difficult to convey 'tone of voice' and that the visitor may have mistaken the intended tone as one of sarcasm, it was still very impolite of the visitor to simply enter an obviously private apartment.. If it were a big open glass house or building, or in a commercial area I could see the confusion, and say that it may have been a simple mistake. Being new to SL might be a valid excuse for the visitor's intrusion, not knowing any better, but simple common sense and a little bit of common courtesy should have told the person that what he/she did was just plain impolite.

I'm not arguing or completely disagreeing with what you said, just adding another point of view

Fox

A good rule I go by is if I'm not sure of the situation, instead of making pronounced statements that could come off as harsh judgement, I'll tend to ask questions instead of learn more. That has helped me a long way over the years.

Actually, when a house doesnt have obvious signs that people want me to stay away (locked doors, way-up-in-the-sky boxs, etc'), I enter any house that happens to look intresting... without asking for permission or anything.

Doesnt seem rude to me. Though I guess saying "and it suck, too!" shows the guy was probebly 12 or 14.

As far as I concern, SL isnt really about privacy - but you're encouraged to respect it when people hint that they'd like to have some.

If someone told me "Excuse me - this is my house," I'd be tempted to make a nasty reply. To my ears that response to a friendly "hi" sounds rude, rather than polite. Chalk it up to cultural differences, as Ellie pointed out.

When I go exploring in SL, most people do not mind someone unexpectedly dropping by and saying hi. In fact, most I've met would be glad to show off their home, or whatever latest thing they've created or acquired. I certainly don't mind people coming up to me while I'm building, and critiquing my build (and I'd be delighted if someone offered to help texture my stuff).

May I suggest that you use the "busy" mode if you do not want to be disturbed.

I have a little prefab cabin, sans doors, in Ironjaw. I did that intentionally. I am always happy to talk with someone who happens by--even if I am writing which is what I am usually doing if I am just standing there.

I have had some of the coolest people stop by to tell me how much my prefab sucks; I don't take offense because it does, in fact, suck. More often than not, my visitors, super-cool folks that they are, leave objects and/or gifts. What a joy!

My point? Oh, yes, my point! Though it is regrettable that you have had a negative experience, don't build a crocodile-filled moat just yet.

"hi"
"Excuse Me - This is my house"
"and it sucks too!"

is slightly different from

"hi "
"EXCUUUUSE ME - THIS IS MY HOUSE !!!!"
"AND IT SUCKS TOO!"

(In this day and age of computers the use of capitals and "smilees" very frequently expresses mood)

-------------------------------

Let me clarify

To enter my apartement you have to walk up a set of stairs that has a metal grate type thing over it ( phantom when not locked - but still very visible )
It is in a RESIDENTIAL area with no shop signs.

In my experience that it pretty obvious.

If you are walking through a housing estate in the real world and see a metal gate to someones front door - do you walk up to it and see if it is not locked ?
If it is not locked do you go in with the assumption that "as it was not locked it must be a public house" ? I think not.

As for cultural differences (you said "especially the UK" - I am English - born and bread - I just happen to live in Italy at this time.
I also teach English so I can assure you my reply was not in the least impolite - correct, there were no tonal assignments to the words ( Yes saying "Excuuuuse ME" is sarcastic.
"Excuse me - statement " is a way of saying "before you continue with your side of the conversation could I interrupt with a statement".


All that aside - I still deplore the manners of some in SL (When I referred to a youngster I was referring to the 10-13/4 range - definitely NOT 18-25 - If you have no manners by the time you reach that age I pity you when you enter a workplace and try to progress in your career.)

No I am not going to correct the typos - I do enough of that when working in the classroom.

I think the cultural difference here might be between SL and RL. In RL, I might not take too kindly to strangers barging into my apartment (though I've invited a couple of mormons into my apartment once .

However, in SL, I'd like to assert that people barging in to your residence and saying "hi" is the *norm*, and not considered impolite at all by a large number of residents. At least, this has been my experience, and I've done my fair share of "let's go see what cool thing that green dot is doing." Thus your visitor might have taken offense at your suggestion that he was doing something wrong ("Excuse me - this is my house".

I think the incident is really just a misunderstanding between two people with different expectations of privacy.

I think you nailed it Flyingroc.

Adriana,

It might have been your house, but like all the buildings in Second Life, if it is not specifically set up to discourage visitors, everybody is entitled to enter and explore to their heart's content.

I have to say that the person concerned is probably telling their friends about the rude and unfriendly person they encountered, and I have to say, I wouldn't blame them.

Where do i buy barbed wire and electric fences then ?

I thought a metal Grid over the staircase was a big enough hint.

(I sell 30x30m signs - do you think that would be sufficient or shall i make a bigger one ?)


If their friends are just like that - then it has probably saved me more interruptions.

I personally will say something like, "knock knock" before entering a SL house that is obviously occupied. If I don't get invited in I will go elsewhere.

However, if I see a an interesting house, and no one is home (thus I won't be disturbing anyone), I will sometimes go in and check it out.

I expect folks to do the same at my house, but am not suprised if someone just walks in. I will usually welcome them and see what they are up to.

Many folks build houses that they want folks to see and explore. The nature of SL promotes creativity and socializing, so it's no suprise that folks will just walk in to an easy to access area and say "hi". It's not a criminal act, nor even really a rude one. People explore. It's a fun thing to do in SL.

If you desire real privacy and no interruptions, you can sit up in the sky with your "Busy" tag on.

You can lock doors within SL. People can still "cam" or "box" in if they wish, but at least it requires more effort. You might try that next time.

I never take offense if someone walks up to me, in my home or elsewhere, and says "hi". I've met some very nice folks that way. And if they are obviously new to SL, I will do my best to help them out and make them feel welcome.

Now if they start acting likes asses, that's a different story...

It's the capitalist pigs I tell you. If only the world was communist, and there was no religion...

BAH!

Humans, can't live with them, can't live without them...

I assume as many others that I can enter someones house unless they have a security field around it or a locked door which 'prevents' me from entering. I LOVE to see people poking around my place, if I didn't I'd take steps to prevent it.

I think it was a misunderstanding, U thought since it was UR house U should be afforded more privacy then U had. But I also would get my undies in a bunch if I stopped by to say hi and I was told..'excuse me this is my house'. Just my two cents

I'm 24 and I happen to have good manners and I am teaching them to my child don't lump everyone under 25 in with a bunch of asshats who misbehave in SL just because they can get away with it.

This attitude about the lack of inworld privacy is a holdover from the time when SL was a giant performance art gallery, and things were made to be seen. (Yes, all things made were to be seen.)

I think Adriana makes a good point. Now that Second Life is evolving into residential districts interspersed with retail outlets, and infested with suburban morality, privacy needs to be redefined. And, following SL solutionism, we need the tools to do it. Havoc 2 physics, da. Camera functions, nyet.

No Tom, Dick, or Furry should ever interrupt me while I'm cooking my virtual lamb chops on my virtual stove in my virtual copy of my designed-by-Lowes kitchen.

I built a flashing "F*CK OFF" sign for when I want to be left alone. So far it has worked

You can make all your doors locking ones. If that was the case with your grid, and your visitor circumvented it in some way, then I have obviously misunderstood, and I apologise. But if not, then it is easy enough to get some measure of privacy, or at least to convey the impression that you would rather not be disturbed.

I hear ya and yes it's been said before here and I'll say it again sl does have more rude people. I don't have much time to play right now as I'm busy doing my textures for Second Skin, so when I do come in and have a friend that wants to say hi I do take sometime with them. I have also had this same kind of thing happen to me, and I just LOVE the new eject pie menu!! WOOT LOL

Try it ..it's a blast hehe

I know that one can circumvent it by focusing in with the camera and using sit to gain entry and don't care if people wander about my property or house as a rule. But this does work for the most part and your doors can be set up with a list of people whom you want to allow access. When I don't want to be disturbed, being in my house with the doors closed generally keeps wanderers from doing so. I did have one person im me to tell me that my doors were broke so I explained that it was because he was not on the access list and that while he was welcome to enjoy the grounds now was not a good time for me to entertain company as I was busy working.