The Open Flame Is Open

Hey, out there. Ever since I came “out” in the forums, I have had people sending me messages talking about their own orientation and how many of us there are in Second Life. With that in mind, I decided to build a little club at my place. It is called The Open Flame, man I kill me. Now it’s not a nightclub or anything just a comfy area to sit and gab. I put in some comfy couches, nice art, a bar a hot tub and a pool. It’s in Welch so all activity is PG, but I just thought it would be nice to have a place where the “Family” can gather. That being said Come Out Come Out wherever you are. I am thinking about a party on Pride Weekend. See you there.

I think your project in a PG sim is a bad idea. Not as a result of your activities but from the response others.

Xavier

Well, what IS the project? Are we talking (not very clearly) about gay and lebian folks?

Just wanted to know.

Personally, I don't care WHY people chose the rare activity of simply sitting and chatting with each other

So then is it bad when I come by your house and ogle your oft-nude avatar? I did not mean to objectify you in anyway, but you were so cute.
At least I still have Doug.

Lass I only when I change and a boy has to switch outfits now and then.

There is no nudity or sex. Just nice chat music and fun. If others find it offensive you will be glad to know the place has a double wall system, and I will alow no over the line stuff on my property. It's just a nice place to gather. And as far as objectionable people well I live in a world where people have objected to my being gay for as long as I can remember. Let em throw the insults. I don't care.

Thanks to the Linden who removed a few replies to this thread.

You know what really annoys me?

When people gloat in their sexuality.

Everyone has a sexual orientation. It's nothing spexial. Get over it.

I'm just confused by your post. I see this as an announcement for a new build/project/gathering place no different than the recent search for motorcycle enthusiasts. Its a place for like minded people and their supporters. Why not post over there that it makes you mad that they accepted a non american motorcycle entry?

Live and let live.

You're right. I've misinterpreted his post.

But, my point still stands. Not pointing any fingers.

You know as well as most reading that as soon as we go live , your project will be the target of many forms of hostile and viscous attacks. These will be visible by minors since you are in a PG sim. The fact that you are willing to confront them doesn't change the fact that others will see them. I respectfully ask you use some forethought and move your project to a Mature sim.

Xavier

It seems wrong to me to have him move what is intended as a PG hangout to a Mature not because of anything the place has done, but because of potential backlash.
People who behave inappropriately in a PG sim should be punished. If they're harrassing, they're in the wrong.
At some point, people are going to have to accept that there are people different from them. I certainly hope it's not moved to a Mature sim, and for two reasons.
First of all, if it's in a mature sim, people may construe it as sexual in nature.
Second of all, being moved to a mature seem seems to me like a justification for these sorts of activities. "As long as no kids see, we can harass whoever we want, it's a mature sim."

Well I guess I am glad I didn't see the offensive post. Look it's simple. I don't want to build in a Mature sim. No offense to the folks in those sims, but I tried all that and did not like it. I am sure that some people will try to insult anyone going to the club, but I can not base my actions and integrity on the actions of others. To the person who said I am flaunting it. Much to the contrary, the club is discreet and tasteful. If it offends you I and others like me are sorry. Let me say this however sir. I will not sit at the back of the bus. I will not hide in the dark, and buddy my closet does not even have doors. We are here. Fact of life. If you don't want to deal with us then don't come to the club. I hope that is enough said.

What is the grid location? I might stop by but it can be hard to find places sometimes. (My view length is 64 and I don't think I'm alone...)

Regarding moving the club to a mature sim... I hope not... all the mature sims are dog slow! And of course it would be a shame to say that a club with good behavior rules should be kicked out of a PG zone anyway. That other poster is right - if people start harassing patrons, well, hey, guess what, we all have a Report Abuse menu option. Screenshots with attached chat logs from ten patrons will probably be enough to get any hecklers termed.

Yup, that's enough =)

I applaud you, Sir.

#!

I think Thai is being extremely crafty. If he and his guests aren't doing anything untoward, but others are and he's in a PG sim, he has a greater range of options for filing abuse reports.

Are us "straight-but-not-narrow" types allowed to visit?

Minors? Did I misunderstand the rules of this game? Do we plan on having minors buy and play this game? I must have misunderstood. My assumption was that this game included only people old enough to be adult.

And, Xav, while I applaud your concern, and I agree with you that others will often disappoint you with their behavior, I must insist that all adults be required to behave responsibly. Even those who might eract to a peaceful gay gathering.

I firmly believe that we only contribute to the increase of barbarism in our society - RL or SL - when we relieve people of their responsibility by masking ourselves to keep them from reacting poorly.

If I am a responsible adult, and I treat others that way too, then I have to expect others to do so as well. If they cant, then they need to be excluded from the adult table.

Thai cannot control the actions of others on his own property. Say his club becomes popular and alot frequent it. They will continue to even if he is not online - just ask Bel. There is no true security and not all will be as respectful as Thai. Even though your not responsible for their actions, LL is.

Just one incident involving minor could cause the collapse of LL in legal battles. The simple act of moving your club to a Mature sim relieves LL of the responsibility of those actions.

I've had my say in the matter... I really am uncomfortable with the position I feel I had to take in this thread. I normally am very apathetic towards everything. I just feel very strongly that this is a really, really, bad idea.

Xavier

Xav,

I understand completely. I appreciate your concern over the potential fallout. I know that it would be an extra level of "protection" for the company if they were to insist that not only all "adult" activities be restricted to certain sims, but also all "potentially controversial" activities go there as well.

You are absolutely right in your estimation of what might, indeed, happen.

My argument is NOT with your concerns, Not at all. My only disagreement is with our reaction to these dangers.

I do not believe it will be in the long term interest of our larger community to set a standard of in-offensiveness in what we consider normal speech here. It is conceivable that - in the near future - life will be full of nothing BUT complaints, cross-complaints, threats of legal action, threats of violent actions, etc. Once the reins of appropriate speech are given over to those with the loudest voices, then there will be nothing but shouting left. We need to INSIST that the way we play is ALWAYS dictated by our agreed-upon Community Guidelines – not by popular, or passionate emotions. If we have to add to those Guidelines, or perhaps adopt a real SL Constitution, then so be it.

What do I, as a writer/publisher, do about my own speech under the tyranny of the "moral majority"? What about just day-to-day behavior? Will we soon have a dress code? A political litmus test? A system of ethnically segregated sims?

Anyway, I do not question your concerns. They are proper. I simply think the bullet needs to be bitten early in some battles. The right to ASSEMBLE PEACABLY is an American Constitutional right, and I am VERY hopeful that it will be declared a human right in Linden as well.

Xav, thanks for caring. Somebody HAS to care for us to prosper :-)

The idea is to allow minors to joing but they won't even see mature areas. Its not implemented yet, and live is next month .... <shrug>

Hmm. Minors in SL? Now THAT is one case where I would STRONGLY support a completely separate grid.

STRONGLY.

If not, than I would recommend a trial period before this idea is cast in cement.

I cannot BEGIN to tell you all my concerns. Not only in the effect this has on adult speech, but in the dangers it presents the children. I have a 12 year-old who is champing at the bit for an SL avatar. Not gonna happen as long as adult avatars can mix with them in private places in PG servers. Whew! I've been online since online was invented, and I've never seen this work well.

If this is a given, please let's put them on a separate, "G" rated grid where the proportion of Liasons to children is very high. And restrict membership ONLY to those who register - with all the parental permissions - as children. Even this is only slight protection, but it goes further than simply flooding the planet with parentless children.

I call "BS" on a number of levels.

You seem to be suggesting that Open Flamers (hey, you chose the name Thai) are somehow more likely to be lewd or otherwise inappropriate in front of minors than other groups of people.

Furthermore, you're saying that Thai should have to worry about how others might behave on his property when he's not there. This is an explicitly non-sexual context, so why should he even have to think about that? No one else does, why does he?

The subtext seems to be that a group of gays are, by their nature, dangerous to minors.

I'm already potentially regretting posting this. But ...

I am not sure it belongs on a PG sim.

I think it is equivalant to me starting up a singles club for heterosexual people. Its not supposed to be sexual, its just a place for single people to get together and talk.

Do you think such a place should be on PG or Mature? As I said, I am not sure. Although the intent is not sexual, the focus, the commonality between prospected visitors, is sexual in nature. And when the drawing feature of a place is sexually related then I think it should be in a mature sim.

So now I've more or less talked myself into thinking it should be on mature. Because the drawing card, the reason people visit, the thing they hold in common, is sexual in nature. I just tend to think that the odds are very in favor of talk etc. turning mature quickly and frequently.

Pro or con, putting it in a PG sim clearly invites some notoriety you may not be looking for. Consider this when deciding the kind of environment and visiblility you realistically expect your visitors to enjoy.

Crossing a street in NYC, a ONE way street, I nearly got run down by a delivery guy on a bike. I suppose you could argue he was only going one way, but on this street, it wasn't the indicated one. To make matters worse, he yelled, "look both ways you stupid F---!"

I got mad. He was wrong; legally, cyclists-code ethically, professionally. IT'S A ONE WAY STREET I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO LOOK BOTH WAYS!!!

It then occurred to me that next time I may be declaring my righteous point to the doctor in the emergency room. If I was still capable of speech.

Now, I look both ways. Every time. And I still get where I'm going. Though if you read the papers nowadays it seems I need to look up too.

Either way go man go.

Ama,
The argument you seem to be making here is that anything related to... well, non heterosexual sexualities is necessarily related to sex. And I disagree. It's possible to talk about, say, your wife or girlfriend without mentioning sex.

Tcoz,
Building this anywhere invites notoriety, regardless of whether it's PG or Mature. I just don't understand why putting it in a Mature sim would create a better environment for the guests.