Subsidies.

When you do, I will. You're the one trying to define "strata", and mixing it into the debate about subsidies and incentives.

Could you answer my question?

Or are you just going to expect people to believe what you say, just because you say it?

But you see, this is exactly my point about the value of the linden. If if falls then it falls. One of the questions I raised in this thread is why is protction of the linden an overarching value in SL? Why must I accomodate people's ability to make a certain level of money? (granted I would rather not see you have to close up shop! But we are still in the theoretical here, as LL has made no indication of increasing stipend or subsidies, nor have the suggested they will do away with it).

I am of the opinion that facilitating the casual players entry in to SL is an important goal. I am aslo of the opinion that the causal plyer would benefit from the continuation of Dwell, Bonus and Stipend, and further more, SL would be a better game if these areas are increased. (obviouslyu I like the game now, and enjoyu it, or I would have split long ago, but sometimes things that are uncomfortable need to be explored without rancor).

The only argument I have heard against the increase in these things is that the linden would be devalued. But I haven't heard how much it would be devalued, or at what point would the devalue prohibit content creators from realizing a benefit.

Well, this is a good way to get a thread closed. But - I'll bite! You wish to decide that I can't compare providing entertainment on this game with providing physical content, because to do so is "divisive."

Fine, think that, but it's not going to stop me from using my brain.

I'll just add "divisive" to the whole huge list of other adjectives I have been personally labeled with when people don't like my ideas. And man, do they run the gamut. All of them false. And none of them having anything to do with my ideas or why I think them.

My numbers I ran involved pitiful amounts of dwell, need for considerable land, withdrawal of subsidies, and the fact that you can't, as a general rule, charge for entertainment on the game. That's why I picked out something else to do, which I would probably like equally well. I don't really care if you believe me or not. Why don't you go try it if you think it is so lucrative? You prove to me that it is.

coco

It is not about protecting people's ability to make money.

It's about stability.

If you want to see SL go down the tubes like TSO is, then we can throw caution to the wind and; who cares what the value of a Linden is?

SL is like a mini-nation. It's currency has real world value, therefore it needs to be treated as we treat real world currency. Stability is at the core of any financially successful nation currency.

There's no way around it.

What I see here is a small contingent of folks who like SL's freedom and possibilities, but don't like the fact that it has a real economy, they want a game economy. It isn't going to happen. LL does not consider it a game, so I really don't know what to tell you.

I am not the one claiming it is or isn't a viable path, you are, therefore the burden of proof for your claims lies with you, not me. Nice try.

Did you hold entertainment events and fail? How high did you set your bar?

Everyone has a different bar you know, and subjecting the rest of us to yours is not cool.

well I don't entirely disagree with you Nolan. Its just the jump everyone makes between a relatively small increase in stipend, bonus and dwell and catestrophic destablization of the linden that I don't follow.

I mean if people paying 195 a month in tier fees got say $4800 linden a month (in essence a $25.00 return on thier tier, and people who pay 10 bucks a month got say 3000 linden a month, instead of everyone getting about 2000 a month, would that bottom out the economy?

Would the linden destabalize, or would it simply decline against the dollar? Do people think such an increase would cause a fifty percent drop in the value of the linden?

would prices be raised if the the linden went to 3.00 instead of four dollars? I am not asking these as rehetorical questions. I would seriously like input. And not just "if the linden collapses, there will be no game. What is the exchange rate at which prices will go up, what is the exchange rate at which people will stop making things. I cannot so how making anything in SL could provide and equivalent real-world value, but some people may be making $100,000 grand a year.

For one thing, Philip Rosedale himself keeps touting SL as a way to make real money. In interviews, he discusses virtual real estate, and how people make real US$ in SL. It wouldn't be very smart to sell SL as a way to make money, and then not protect the value of the $Linden.

(Damn I am spending too much time on this thread. lol this is what happens when I sit around all day at a mediation, lol every couple hours I have to go in and explain why I'm not paying money for for something my client didn't do. we love the legal system!).

Jonquille I accept that as axiomatic, people should be allowed to make money. Bat as i stated in my last post. I am trying to sort out how much money they think they should make.

Hey on an totally unrelated note, 12 pages without a flame war, or being closed down! This has to be some kind for genral forum record! Maybe we should all go get a beer.
Lol at the very least I am suprised it didn't get bumped into land and the economy.

(Maybe for my next thread I should see if we can talk for twelve pages about sex in sl without being closed down! *hugs and pats on the back to everyone*)

(ok so its not a record, but we are in the top six of those that have not been shut down!)

Welp, Nolan, I don't think there is enough money in entertainment as there is in creating physical content.

You think there is. We are just going to have to agree to disagree.

coco

I'll just quote Chip's answer to your question about how much people should make, Jake. Honestly, I don't know. If I stop to think how much I'm charging for a shirt, thinking of it in real US $, it's pretty pathetic. ($00.20, are you kidding me? I quit! That's not even considering the portion that is taken out in the upload costs, of both the clothing texture and box texture.)

Am I making enough money? Yeah, I am, because I'm enjoying doing it. If you don't enjoy creating entertainment and hosting events, don't do it. If you do enjoy it, why worry about how much money you're making doing it?

My prices have pretty much always remained the same - since I started... I charge around what I think something is worth and leave it there.. a lot of things I make are considered to be fairly cheap... It doesn't bother me that much.

Everyones game is different.. it's the game they invented... if the Linden dollar collapsed tomorrow - or for some reason it GOM/IGE closed up shop - or the whole dollar concept was stripped from SL, it wouldn't change *my* game -- I'd still continue making things I thought were cool and nifty.. I'd probably tier down (no point having a bunch of land if you don't need a shop anymore) - but apart from that I'd remain the same.
Of course this is *my* game -- not everyones is the same.. there are people who would no doubt pack up and cancel accounts.. Thier game could have been ruined.

At what exchange rate would I stop creating? I was creating before there was one -- see above

I think the person cited as making 100,00 USD per year deals in land sales, and now rental estates and malls.. that is their game.. they invented a game for themselves based around making money, and they're playing to win.

For everyone it's different.. Second Life isn't so much 'the game' - it's 'the place' -- at some level or another we all invent our own game as we find our niche and fit into it.. find that thing which makes us happy and makes the place entertaining for each of us.

For each of us it's different... that's part of the reason (I think) that you see so much heated debate on the forums. A lot of people assume that everyone else is playing as they are -- and it's the fact that they're not, or don't have to, that (in my opinion) makes Second Life such a cool place to spend time in.

Siggy.

Ahhh, well here I am. I charge 2500 for a two-hour show, which I play about once a week, usually Sunday nights (the Tuesday night shows at Clementina are my own events). As for tips, it varies hugely, of course. Several of my regular listeners have been very generous. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess that I make up to 2000 in tips on a good night, so you wind up with something like 2500+2000+2000=6500 on a good week. I have streaming expenses that come out of that; I'm not sure that Jamie Otis wants his stream rate to be publicized, and I may get a bulk discount from him, so I won't post it, but I do clear a good profit over that. I do not own any land, so it's all income; I have no LL expenses. Faerie and stampshady provide the terrace at Clementina Park for my Tuesday shows (as well as a little parcel for my beach house, bless their hearts!).

So, it's way less than what I charge for RL gigs, but it's nice to be able to make a little fun money while I hang out in my basement studio and play music to my friends in SL.

And it's a shame that events/performance are a losing activity for promoters. Alliez and Tony shut down the club at Rue d'Alliez last night as a hosted event location for themselves - my show was the last there - since it was killing them financially to keep supporting all the events that they sponsored in there. SL economics is about retail and land. It's not about events. But this thread is all about that. I'm pretty happy with what I make as a performer, but it's at the generosity of club owners/listeners, and it doesn't scale. No one could have a club and support a bunch of performers like me every week. And, even I couldn't do it if Jamie Otis didn't supply me with such a good stream deal. I was losing money when I had to pay my company's ISP for the bandwidth. But that's a stream bandwidth issue, not an SL issue.

By the way (shameless plug) - my one-year anniversary of playing live shows is Sunday, at Sally Zapata's Picnic Area - Sally hired me for my first gig, exactly a year ago Sunday, June 19! I forget the name of the sim, it starts with "J", but she'll post it in events, Sunday 7-9 PM. Should be a fun party, and I'm very happy that Sally is available to host the anniversary!