Subsidies.

Oh I know Coco You're talking more specifically about subsidies for entertainment and events. I think the reasoning with the removal of those subsidies ties in to that same strategy. This is my guess, but I think subsidies for events were removed in order to encourage event hosts and clubs to start charging people to participate as another incentive for people to convert to premium accounts or buy L$. Free events, especially ones that involve giving away money actually work against the goal of getting more people on monthly accounts.

chump change huh? over 24 months...

0 -=- $1.00 -=- $1,000.00
1 -=- $1.20 -=- $1,200.00
2 -=- $1.44 -=- $1,440.00
3 -=- $1.73 -=- $1,728.00
4 -=- $2.07 -=- $2,073.60
5 -=- $2.49 -=- $2,488.32
6 -=- $2.99 -=- $2,985.98
7 -=- $3.58 -=- $3,583.18
8 -=- $4.30 -=- $4,299.82
9 -=- $5.16 -=- $5,159.78
10 -=- $6.19 -=- $6,191.74
11 -=- $7.43 -=- $7,430.08
12 -=- $8.92 -=- $8,916.10
13 -=- $10.70 -=- $10,699.32
14 -=- $12.84 -=- $12,839.18
15 -=- $15.41 -=- $15,407.02
16 -=- $18.49 -=- $18,488.43
17 -=- $22.19 -=- $22,186.11
18 -=- $26.62 -=- $26,623.33
19 -=- $31.95 -=- $31,948.00
20 -=- $38.34 -=- $38,337.60
21 -=- $46.01 -=- $46,005.12
22 -=- $55.21 -=- $55,206.14
23 -=- $66.25 -=- $66,247.37
24 -=- $79.50 -=- $79,496.85

most business are lucky to see 20% growth in a year.
8x growth in a year is pretty damn good
and 79x growth in two years is even better

I have not spoken bitterly about that. Why can't you figure out that I may be perfectly capable of using these things myself, and in fact enjoy these things, and yet still believe the game needs more? Why must a few of you ALWAYS look to something personal, some failing of my own, to explain my holding a different point of view about what the game needs?

Your data doesn't prove a dang thing. Add to your list television sales, movies, CD's, computer games, newspapers and magazines, Broadway shows, amusement parks, and adult video sales. All of those are entertainment. Adult entertainment alone eclipses practically everything else.

Besides which, comparing book sellers to WalMart - why am I even talking here?

A. It is a game. It advertises itself as a game. People approach it as a game. As a virtual reality niche game. It may be more than a game to many, it may be not at all a game to some, but basically - it is a game. I don't do entertainment because there is no support for doing it. LL needs to support entertainment if they want it provided (and they should).

B. The subsidies come from LL. At no cost to anybody. In fact, by allowing more players of different stripes to have more fun on the game, they will get more subscribers and make more profit for themselves.

C. LL will provide either the occupations themselves (in the case of some teeny-tiny very low paying make-work for those who really can't or don't want to do anything else, and can't spend their real-life money giving it to the creators), as well as built-in incentive for us to create non-physical content.

D. It will lead to inflation, but minor in consideration of the greater numbers of lasting players it will foster (many of whom will eventually decide that the low-paying make-work isn't worth it and start buying their Lindens anyway).

E. Subsidies - what we get every Tuesday. Grants/subsidies/I'm not sure what they are called - what people get for giving education classes and used to get for providing entertainment.

coco

it's marketed as entertainment. not as a game. it's marketed as a place people can create, explore, entertain, play games, etc. http://secondlife.com/whatis/

ll supports their goals. just because they don't share you visions doesn't necessarily mean they should change their goals. especially at this time and especially given that there are enough residents to support their current goals.

mind there is much room for expansion, growth, and improvement, but sl is still a nascent technology/platform.

Fine, call it ENTERTAINMENT. It is entertaining for me to build, by the way.

But it is in the general category of Online Games. You know it, I know it, LL knows it, everybody knows it.

How do you know they don't share my views? Could be they consider this entertainment problem quite something to wrestle with. Could be they are trying to balance subsidies, and the amounts of them, with any problems they cause. Could be they might welcome different viewpoints from different types of players, including me. Could be they are NOT hide-bound in their views.

I am not, and have never been, talking about turning SL into TSO or Anarchy Online. If I wanted those, I would play them. I have been talking about how to achieve balance, to make the game more enjoyable for everyone, to increase the fun and entertainment value of it, to get the most players, to achieve the greatest success, to appeal to the most people possible without losing that which makes SL unique.

And I feel pretty confident in my conviction that they would like to maximize profits from the game. You don't have to do that by throwing out the baby with the bath water. But also, you can't do that if you don't achieve balance, and if you continue to appeal and cater only to people with specialized skills and interests.

coco

It's so gratifying to see someone else taking up the good fight with you all, so desperately needed, because then I get a break.

I love it that Coco thought up the word "hegemony" to explain the phenom I've been trying to get at for months -- *so* apt. That's it precisely!

The Hegemons say it is not a game. They wish. It is a game, thought.

It's a game because it has both a ratings component and a metaratings game with reputations and posturing and jockeying to appear the most cool, altrustic, greatest friend to noobs, etc.

Prims are free, so are script forms. Textures are only $10. The stuff just grows on trees! And they are going to keep all that -- all the games raw materials -- and take away our ten percent land bonus?

Dwell, the top 20 list, the leader board, now Pathfinder's picks -- there are numerous "game" features to this definite game. The game is to be the best at pretending it's not a game. The game is to make Pinnochio become a real boy. That's why it is so compelling. A game that everyone is always trying to "make real".

The game of using RL facts as currency in the virtual world -- and numerous other games.

The only thing that Enabran is probably right about is the make-work. You can't have the Lindens making the gnome benches like in tSO, because it would go against their whole philosophy. THere's nothing in SL that you can do while absently clicking on your avatar except maybe dancing. It all takes concentration, and there is nothing where repetitive motions alone bring you results, even cutting and pasting a lot of builds.

Only players can make up these job niches, but...it is a game.

you forgot most insanely verbose and obtuse

Please revisit your high school economics text. Inflating the Linden Dollar will lower its trading power against the USD, so the cost will be to anyone who seeks to make money in SL. Increased subsidies will result in higher prices for other goods and services and then you'll be back demanding more subsidies because the current ones buy nothing for anyone.



See above.



What of the current players who will no longer be justly rewarded for their efforts thanks to this admitted inflation? Where will these people getting paid to do nothing spend their worthless cash when those who work to crate value no longer bother to do so because the rewards have become too meager? You're failing to consider the entire picture and have yet to ever answer my questions, when posed:

How will you create the value of money out of nothing?

Yes, Prok, the make-work thingie is the thing I feel least strongly about and would be willing to let go of - it's almost an old idea of mine now. Plus I feel if the structure were in place for people to do other occupations that they create for themselves, which dwell does (poorly) and which subsidies for events used to do, then that, along with some incentive for dealing in land, would help a great deal. If I can think of anything creative enough about ways they could support other endeavors, I will let people know.

But yes, the make work thingie can go by the wayside, as far as I'm concerned, once there is SOMETHING a new player can do. The more occupations supported for older players, the more they can hire other people, including newer and non-specialized-skilled players, they can afford to hire to work for them.

coco

LL does not support content creators. Not monetarily, and not even by punishing those who steal and resell content created by others. Why should it support entertainment providers? Where is the indignation that LL charges us $10 to upload textures for builds and clothing, and $10 for animations?

A host is just as capable of charging for their services as a content creator is. Moreso, if you realize that the ability to charge for admission is built right into the land tools. A content creator only makes money off that which is desired to be purchased. Why should an entertainment provider be any different?

And what exactly do you need money in SL for anyway? What is it you're being charged to do?

Well, I really do want to go back to making my house now, and only got off because there was thunder and lightening, then I got hung up in the fun in here.

In short, if the game is too hard for Average Player, there will be no one to buy goods. That is where the idea of balance comes in, vis-a-vis inflation.

I don't feel it works to charge for entertainment, and have said so and explained why at length in other threads.

I'm going to look at some other threads now, then get back to building before bedtime, and revisit this tomorrow.

coco

A new player can:

- Learn LSL
- Apply his Photoshop skills to texturing
- Apply his graphic design skills to creating amazing packaging for businesses
- Apply his experience in the audio industry to make radio-style advertisements for products
- Use his love of architecture to assist others in the planning of large developments
- Become an entrepreneurial project manager, hiring others to provide him with needed skills in exchange for cold hard cash (this is what I do)
- Using his english degree, write documentation for products others have created

... Get my point? The creation of wealth requires the same creativity as the creation of poems or a delicious roast duck recipe. The only limit is the market and human imagination.

If and when the market becomes such that traditional "employees" become necessary for the sake of conducting business, these jobs will happen. But only when the market is ready. It cannot be forced or guilted into getting there.

A "new" user could make a ton of money working for me with a system I have had in place for a while. All they have to have is salesmanship and to own my siegeBot. I pay L$50 for each referred customer and after five referred customers, I pay for their siegeBot. They can go on earning L$50 as long as they want, as many customers as they like.

I have yet to find anyone who has decided to become a part-time salesman for me.

they aren't throwing the baby out with the bathwater. they just aren't doing what you want yet. in time they might.

Then I'll look for your answer when you come up with it. Have a good night.

Very well stated Jon!

And personally, I look forward to the day when it costs me to get into an event. I know that I will pay for high quality events, and that means event hosts will have to work to get my money. Entertainment costs in RL but often has its perks as well. Such as, $10 cover to get into the bar, but then they have $1.50 long necks. hehe..

If all events cost to get in, and always had, then it would not be as hard to implement now. But if LL continues to take away "subsides" (which some of them I do wish to see taken away or lowered at the very least), then it will become a necessity for events to charge. Some may only charge $1, and may give away hundreds. But most event hosts I know these days always give out more than they take in already. So I can't really see how this system would make anything much different than it is now.

*My* opinion is that SL is a game only in the same way that RL is a game. It is a platform for us to create a second life, a second world. I see it as the platform for a future immersive internet. I would like to see LL involved in this world only so much as they provide us the tools to shape this world and the maintence to keep those tools running (much like a web hosting service would do). It is the residents of SL that should make this world a place that future people want to come to and stay in, not LL.

The unfortunate reality of event hosting is that if you try to charge a cover, for a well-planned, entertaining event, you will be harassed in IM during the event, when you are least able to deal with it. Folks WILL get indignant. Not everyone, not even most probably, but alot will. Particularly if they are unsure of the events value in terms of education or entertainment.

Let's face it, dwell/traffic payments are a joke, and always have been. They are hardly an incentive, unless the person thinking they are has not seen just how ridiculously small the payments are. For the most part, event holders either really desire to entertain or educate, have folks spend money at their place of business, grab a chunk of the Dwellopers Incentive award, or a combo of one or more of these things.

I run events. I used to run alot with cash or prize payouts, and even when LL was offering support for those, I ALWAYS paid out more than I took in. Now I run mostly discussion or social events without cash payouts, because i have no incoming cashflow to fund prize/contest events. I do occasional still give out cash prizes, or get donations for prizes for special events/parties.

Typically, an event holder is paying land tier fees, paying for any scripting or items or help needed for the event and often times makes no incoming L$ other than some dwell chump change.

I would definitely pay a cover charge for a well crafted event. But sadly, there are alot of folks that would turn up their nose, be offended, be too friggin cheap, be too broke, or merely use the cover charge as an excuse to be critical of your event or harass you.

I can already here folks IM'ing and wanting refunds cause they don't like the event, it isn't what they expected, the crashed, or they have to leave early.

And these are the people we should be so concerned about keeping entertained so they don't *gasp* leave? Sorry. They can take their cheap asses somewhere else and I won't shed a tear.

Since when did catering to the lowest common denominator for fear of not appealing to everyone become a good thing?

hehe..while I agree..let's face it, standard business practice for most successful businesses is to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Look at advertising and politics for example.

But I understand what you are saying. However, some of the folks that just won't get it, or can't afford it, are Second Life's newest members, which I personally love to see at my events.

I'm not even calling for LL to re-establish event support, but I am pointing out that some folks DO work hard at providing entertainment for folks, and choose that as their SL "profession", but have very little chance of making any real money at it. They do play an important role in SL, arguably moreso than the hard working and talented content creators, such as designers and builders.

The social aspect of SL is of great appeal to a vast majority of it's inhabitants, and the value of such shouldn't be overlooked by LL.

Folks have fun and educational experiences in SL=tell friends and get them to try out SL=$$$ for LL

Of course folks see cool creations=tell friends and get them to try out SL=$$$ for LL

I think I have to disagree with you there. LL absolutely supports content creators, the building and scripting mechanisms that content dreators use are built into the game. This is an absolute indirect subsidy (in much the same way the inter-state highway system operates as a subsidy to the trucking industry). Entertainment has no such subsidy in SL beyong the dwell payments and bonuses.

I also don't think these issuses affect only a small minority of the population. I agree that a small minority bumps heads about this, but I do think there is a deeper tension out there. I created this thread to foster debate about where SL is headin, and what people beleive SL is. Who is right or wrong is not material, what is important is that your position gets voiced in a way that does not attack other players as dumb. If you have reasonable counter arguments, voice them, but don't resort to calling somone an idiot because you don't agree with them.

I would point out to those advocating capitalism that pure, unadulterated, free market capitalism exists nowhere in the real world Except maybe in the streets of Tijuana. Markets are protected, coddled and subsidized all the time. Look at the tariff protections on trade.

I will note that I am not advocating any reward for a basic account. As far as I am concerned these are marketing accounts. Frankly I absolutely thing LL should go to a subscription based service. But that is LL's choice, not mine.

My concerns relate to two things: 1. that people who do provide "entertainment" in the world get rewarded for providing such content, I think the dwell and bonus system is the right idea, but should be expanded a bit; and 2. I think stipend should be on a scale commensurate with tier. I am not advocating making anyone rich with stipend, simply acknowleding the fact that tier payment increases the wealth of the community. Frankly I haven't seen the later adressed at all: why shold stipend not tied into teir level, and what level of stipend is appropriate.

Finally the most glaring point that I am missing is why the value of the linden against the gom needs to be so protected. I mean the value of the linden is what the value of the linden is. I guess if SL is a tool for investment, the sometimes your investments go up in value and sometimes they go down.

I doubt very seriously that relatively minor increases in Dwell, bonus, and stipend will have a dramatic effect on the value of the linden. It seems to me however, that the crux of the argument turns on a polarization of interpretations fo what SL is, but rather it seems a group of people are advocating protecting the value of the linden at all cost to game play, and others fail to see that the right to make money in SL is sacrosanct. Perhaps I am wrong in assuming this is a philosophical tension, and it really is all about protecting the dollar value of what we put inot the game.

Been meaning to say, Jake - about your idea of rewarding tier with greater stipends. I think the major reward for tier - and it is a HUGE one - is increase in prim allotment. Prim allotment is much more valuable than stipends. Prim allotment is why people buy more land.

coco

The value of the Linden Dollar must be protected in order to ensure just compensation for those individuals providing products and services within Second Life. Should the value of the Linden Dollar plummet, there will be no economic reward for anyone seeking to do business in Second Life. If you don't care about the value of the Linden Dollar, fine. Thankfully, Linden Lab understands how not to slit the wrists of their worldwide development staff -- the users who create content.



Well, Jake, by your explanation Linden Lab has already subsidized entertainment as well. Parcels already have paid admission systems as well as mechanisms for introducing streaming content into the world. There is a chat system which allows event hosts to talk to people. There is the concept of shared space which allows people to congregate. Don't whine because one group has leveraged the power of Second Life's tools to make money but another has not. One day someone will get the moxy to start charging admission for an event that's worth paying for. That person will be wealthy.

The argument that support for something which cannot make money should have that money gifted instead is an amusing one. If you can't make money selling entertainment, you suck at providing entertainment. Simple as that. Making money requires work, folks. You don't get to just show up and collect the cash, as previous event subsidies allowed.

Want to be rewarded? Work for your reward. Expect no one to give it to you as a gift.

Sorry Jake, but that's a silly argument. Since it's quite possible to use the provided tools (streaming music, chat, animations, etc) to entertain people then entertainment is just as "supported."

Great minds think alike, Mr. Midnight, as ever.

edit: Hey, so, then again, everyone is equally subsidized since Linden Lab has provided tools equally. Thus, no further discussion is necessary! Events ARE getting the support they need. Glad this could be so amicably settled!

You know, much as I understand the vision/reasoning/all of that that you guys keep telling me, and much as I grapple with this whole problem in my mind, sometimes the common sense part of me reminds me of just one thing, as it just did now:

When I came into the game and learned it, I decided to start creating things.

Why? Not because I'm a crappy entertainer. Far from it. I'm a terrific online entertainer.

Because it wasn't in my best interests to do so. Because you can't make money from it in this game. It became obvious to me early on. VERY obvious. You have to do it largely as a public service, out of charity. And I'm not much into putting a lot of effort into something, for no return. It became obvious to me early on that my best efforts here would be to create things, and that's fun, too.

Now, why did I get this idea? Is it because I am stupid? Is it because I somehow just overlooked the fact that yes, I could get as much return from entertaining as I could from making things?

No. I'm not stupid. However much you want to parse it, and say this and that and the other, the fact remains that I won't be doing much entertainment in this game. Because that's the way the game is. Because it doesn't support entertainment.

I want it supported. And not for me. I'm just as happy creating things by my wittle self as I am doing the enormous and difficult and demanding job of hosting creative entertainment. I want it to change for the good of the game.

Talk talk talk talk talk - I'm an entertainer who knew right away it wasn't the way to go. Argue that out of existance.

coco

Coco, how many times have you tried to make money by entertaining? How much work have you put in to building up a reputation as an entertainer so that people will be willing to pay you for it? I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who just throw their hands up and say "can't"