Quick, What's The Number For 911?!?

Sorry about the title... just to get you reading. I think we should have some sort of "script" and "object" police. I had a chat with Charlie last night about this. We see some ppl, "stealing" some objects and then reselling them for cheaper! Or asking for help with script (ie gun script), and out of good faith we give it to them, but they just shove it in their own gun and sell it. I know this could be partly my fault, but could we get like a locking, or DIGI SIG on scripts and textures... Like unable to resell. Or that the owner puts a price on the resale value. (like if I sell textures 20$ and I put the minimum resell 40$... THEN the shumk who buys it cannot sell it lower then 40$) I don't know... this is kinda going no where... but I would like to some idea on how we could control and prevent ppl from "stealing" stuff...

P.S. I'm a good guy, and ppl who know me inworld know that. I could mod and copy A NON MOD OR COPY object that I buy... EASY! But I don't do it, simply out of respect for the creator.
P.P.S. sorry this is kind of a rant.

A few points

a) some people who don't script seem to think that that's the easy part, ie, you get "the gun script" stick it in and your object is a gun, they did all the work modeling the gun, so why _shouldn't_ they sell it?

2) it's possible that this is the way The Linden Cartel wants it to be. You can't make one good thing and then charge every one for it forever, if you want to make money, you have to keep creating novel things that no one else in the world has yet

iii) as mentioned in other threads, I agree that it would be very nice to have script controls seperate from the object controls

yeah i'm pushin for the no mod scrip option even though I don't script. Out of principle.

I've been catchin people reselling objects a lot. I've whined aboot it to people. its just not right and not really controllable atm. Hopefully that will change.

report that privately so it can be corrected somehow

*grumbles about stray objects* Had my house all nice and set up with really pretty glass windows and lo & behold some guy flies up and plops down a box right in my main view path of the water. grrrr. not on my land, not on his land (he doesnt have any there) but public land in front of my house and i cant touch it. do i have to buy that land just to delete it ? lol or will i always have a big ugly box in my view

Flyk, don't worry they know about it. I've spoken to.... hey I forgot which linden... it was andrew, phil or phoenix... or maybe doug.... hmmm but they know about it. LOL I don't know if you heard but I made a Sim bomb 2 nights ago! BTW James Linden was with me and we tested it. It's gonna be fixed in the next update. AND NO i'm not going to sell it! Not to ruin my gamming or anybody elses in a server, that's just plain dumb. but... if you piss me off.... well.... (joke)

That's the easiest way I know Moonbeam, buy the land, delete the box, then release the land back. Woun't cost you anything that way.

What if you can't use or don't want something you bought? What if you're poor and want to sell something you bought to get some cash? Is that ok or not?

If it's ok, then how much should you sell it for? More than you paid? Less than you paid? Whatever you wanna sell it for?

For example, I've been thinking I don't use my car, and I really would rather have a drivable one. I don't want to do anything with it that's not ethical.

Watcha think?

Kerstin

If something is purchased, all rights to that object and everything with it goes to the buyer. I understand where you're all coming from but realisticly, it's not feasible.

If I were to create this great script, then sell it to someone, and get royalties from it every time he sells a copy of it, and royalties from those people....... You see where I'm going. You could become very rich with just one really good/popular script. I dont think that is envisioned by any of the creators.

Along the "royalty" way of thinking, some thoughts:

How much editing to a script is needed to consider it "a new script" and resellable without it being considered "theft"

How different does an object have to look before the original owner would consider it "a new object"

You can see some problems with it and I've only touched on the most obvious.

In my opinion, it would be unrealistic to try to have content police. Aside from the above, IF I were to buy/copy someones object that has a script attached to it, and sell it to a few people, then they log off. Then the police come, so I edit the item to No Sale/Copy, you would basically have to have Dev intervention to determine if it was indeed your stuff I am selling.

I just see more problems than fixes with it. I think if you put something up for sale, you are not only selling the object, but the rights for the buyer to do anything they like to it. I just think any other way would be too hard to control... Big Brother comes to mind

Heh I dunno why but I kinda like the pyramid scheme pricing for items. I make an item and sell it for $100 and decide its copyable BUT I get $10 for every copy of that object. I dunno, in most cases I wouldn't even bother. What I really just want are the same content controls for scripts that I have for objects (mod & copy) and possibly my "tradable" one I posted about somewhere else. And of course copyable only makes sense if it isn't modable.

Hmmmm. All rights belong to the creator of the object or script. It's the law. When you buy it, you're buying only a license to use it. You may not sell it, and you not change it -- not even so much as the textures -- or a single line of code -- without the creator's explicit permission (in writing is always best). The reason is copyright law. All modelers and scripters need to do is to include with their model or script a copyright notice. (Actually you don't even need to include the statement -- you have an implicit copyright -- but life is easier if you use the statement.)

Copyright is the reason you can't modify 'Windows' and sell it as 'Doors'. Copyright is the reason you can't paint a moustache on the 'Mona Lisa' and sell it as 'The Bearded Lady'.

Professional modelers and software creators deal with this all the time. There's lots of info on the net on how to copyright your models and scripts -- it doesn't cost you anything and you don't need a lawyer -- you only need to include the statement with your model or script.

I've been surprised that I haven't seen any copyright statements on models and scripts.

Kerstin

As far as I've seen, the most gifted scripters are also the most free with their talents, scripts and help for newbies.

You could think of selling your scripted items as a growth mechanism. Once one script is done, you get to move on to more complicated and more "kewler" scripts. A newbie gets a look at a good script and learns something. The entire SL world profits.

Coding is often using bits of preexisting code. The environment fosters many similar script ideas and needs. It will be extremely difficult to distinguish where your idea/code ends and someone else’s idea/code begins.

Policing scripts and objects will be a futile effort. There is nothing that someone can do that someone else won't do in time.

fen-

I like!

mostly what feniks said. At least in these early stages, we are a small, reasonably tight knit community, so anything that benefits one person, ultimately benefits all the other. Which is why i ran those tutorials, and always stopped what i was doing to help others...(or maybe it was really a selfish goal, in that by helping everyone now, they will all leave me alone later so i can actual get stuff done heheh)

i think the only thing that would tick me off is if people took all the credit for a script they modified, or had a significant amount of help with. Like for instance the boat script eveyone who came to the raft race was written by me, but philip added the little for loop that summed up all the positions. Or the stairway to heaven, phoenix came up with another approach that worked better than the way i was originaly trying to do it... ultimately it is really about the honor system, you just need to give credit where credit is due... hmm it might not be a bad idea to start setting up a comment in the front that states who the main contributors are... think i will do that if i ever get back lol

Nada well put. It "is" to me the principal of it all. I still don't try to sell what someone gives me or what I buy from someone. But if the script writter (original one) is known I comment it in b4 I hand it out. I also try my best to ask the original writer even b4 I give it away for nothing.....Wednesday wrote a nice landscapin script and I didn't release it till I asked him. It is ALWAYS nice to include the original writer in on the plans you may have with their script, that may not be acceptable to not resell to everyone but c'mon if they write it let it be known so they get credit where credit is due..

EDIT: Nada I forgot b4 you left to ask you if the stairway was done hehe. Wanted to see if I could get one

heh it is done, it even goes down! oh and i made it so that you can rotate the spawning platform any direction and the stairs will go in that direction so it is no longer case dependent, i.e. the script figures out rotation and vectors and everything. Right so soon as i get back in, i send you one!(the spawn block, that is since it is a necessity)

very cool thx You gotta see my castle tho. Its is one awsome acclomplishment

I keep reading about it!!! I can't wait to get back IW and see what everyone has done!

heh how many SL years are there in a RL year?

As I said in another forum thread about information flow, why ISN'T there a copyright service for ingame stuff. You want people to quit doing cheap, illicit, or otherwise unethical things in game? Well, send somebody who plays a similar "game", send a lawyer. Im certain, given a proper amount of time, any half-decent lawyer could find a way to convict Abraham Lincoln of both gross negligence and lewd conduct. So do that here, i mean heck, just pay 50 bucks to somebody in game to put on a suit texture, and go bother somebody until they agree to give you credit for the code they're using in their items (assuming of course, that they got code from you in the first place, and you coded it). Maybe we can all go one step farther, and establish a set of user laws on the subject. I'd volunteer to assemble that into something of an officious sounding document (although i rather not be the one to spoil this digital eden by becoming a legal rep).

Oh, PS: if there is some sort of Gamer's Anon for losers who have to many ideas and absolutely no talent, could somebody send me directions? Or maybe I should...Please e-mail me w/ comments or flames, either would be probably good for me. [email]asher385@yahoo.com[/email]

Asher, I'm confused. I read your other post which definitely seemed to sincerely advocate a registry system. In this post you seem to be dead set against that sort of thing.

Anyway, my personal opinion is that it's good that copyright laws are there for those who want or need them. It's optional whether or not you enforce them for your own creations. That's so people have also have the option of freely sharing. It's all good (my opinion).

Personally, I think any inworld resident 'policing' system would not be a good thing, whether for attempted protection of creations or for any other purpose. I see it as fraught with too many problems to even list here. But basically it comes down to this: if 2 people are paying the same amount for the same service why should one have the right to tell the other what to do? Bound to cause problems. My opinion.

Kerstin

P.S. The requirements to be a beta tester do not include having been blessed with talent, or for all one's ideas to be good ones.

Sorry for the confusion, your right, i do believe in a registry, but that was almost a library, i just have an innate bitterness towards proffessional lawyers, people who go around in suits and try to scare the bejeezus out of you (watch any simpsons episode in which Burns trots his lawyers out). I dunno, it was also obscenely early when i wrote that, so more bitterness than i wanted to get out did. So i guess im back, at 5:19 am PST, and will clarify my position for those of you who still care.
Protection is good, but a society that needs well groomed, well paid thugs is bad, and quite frankily, even some of the best lawyers (both in skill and in morals and ethics) is more often than not, a well groomed, well paid thug, who flexes his or her strong arm in the court of law as opposed to the streets, techicalities are life, and the greater picture often gets lost. So maybe it shouldnt be either a copyright place or a library of congress place, maybe its just The Patents Office (register anything even remotely useful for a small price). For people to establish a legacy, that sounds right, in my rather enfeebled state of mind at any rate. Same ending, comment, positive, negative, or flame, doesnt matter. [email]asher385@yahoo.com[/email]


*Addendum*An actual response would be good wouldn't it. Its not that two people provide two exact same services for the exact same prices (the same exact quality is impossible). It's one person builds a reputation, and others learn from that. This is to insure some snickering little learner doesn't decide he or she can do better by taking copies and going solo. This way, one person gets to a level of excellence almost unheard of. They start teaching others. Then others actually excell, and rise to their own heights. And they teach even newer people. Its a cycle of learning really, almost seperate of the money. In fact ignore that, there will always be people who cant build anything (like me) who will be willing to contibute money to those who can build.
Here's an analogy. The hunter catches some meat, and brings it back to camp. some chefs take that meat and cook it into a stew and dry some to pack for the hunters next trip out for meat.
The system of "internal policing" is to merely insure that the cycle continues. Because a reputation, a knowledge is the closest thing to immortality that any of us will ever attain, online or off. That's why there are museums, so artists will live forever. And we can do that in Second Life by recognizing talent, and contributions and making sure it doesnt just end when one group of people leave. So that's all im trying to say, a mouthful, I know...lol, guess that's why I write, I've got alot to speak about, I just hoping I actually SAY something.

yes it is completely priciple and being decent to one another.
It would be nice if we could work on the honor system alone.

Thanks for the clarification Asher. What I meant by 2 people paying the same price for the same service is that we are all (or will be prolly) customers of Linden, paying the same $20 or so a month to run around and play in SL.

I'm a demanding customer, and I would have a hard time with another customer 'laying down the law' to me or 'policing' me or jailing me or fining me or even reprimanding me. So I'm 4 square against any kind of resident-run 'policing' system for model copying or anything else. And if a play lawyer showed up on my doorstep, I'm sorry, but I just would not have the patience. And if the person jailing or fining me or 'lawyering' me is my equal -- that is, another customer of Linden -- ima be pissed. It's just not (I hope) what I would have contracted for from Linden.

Bottom line, if people really want to protect their creations, (for example people who are professionals or trying to become professionals), I think they need to call an attorney in the real world and find out how or if it's even possible. Other than that, we're dependent on software features and the ethics of others to protect our creations as much as possible. It's just not entirely possible.

If a creation is that important to someone, then maybe it's best just not to sell it. I know I'm not gonna sell any of my huge pink blocks

Just my opinion -
Kerstin

Does this go back to the whole jail thing?

Just imagine HUAC with a much more friendly, and ethical dispostion, and lacking McCarthy at its helm. Its not so much a jail or a police force as it is a bunch of people who feel wronged by so and so getting together and griping really. If people choose to ignore this, well, than short of instituting a rather sever in-game copyright rulebook, there's not much you can do. Other than ask nicely i guess, or complain to Linden Labs and rate the guy or gal w/ a negative.