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One Year Malaise

Rose Karuna
Lizard Doctor
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,772
10-02-2005 06:21
I was feeling pretty low this week, not just about SL but just about things in general I guess. Some RL stuff too - health issues and all (a brain's a terrible thing to lose, in the immortal words of our former VP Dan Quayle and after all the tests I've been through I have to agree).

In any case, this post is to say that just one small thing can change one's perspective a lot. Last night I was wandering (actually standing at the ATM thinking about cashing out) and a nice young fella named Kipper came by and asked me if I wanted a ride on a Blimp.

Now blimps are kind of special to me in a strange sort of way because I probably would not be in existence were it not for the Goodyear Blimp. (When I get my scanner connected back up some day I'll post pics if anyone is interested). In any case, my grandmother and grandfather on my mothers side got married IN the Goodyear Blimp. LOL I have a picture of the whole wedding party standing there as the blimp lands and my grand parents getting off the blimp.

So anyhow, Kipper Kolache came along with an absolutely amazing airship and gave me a glorious ride. We saw farms, interesting builds, fallen angels, some really weird not explainable things and I saw SL from a different perspective.

This is truly the spirit of SL for me, though it may be different for others I know. I have to say though, it was a very good salve for a general malaise.
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Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
10-02-2005 07:14
From: Emma Soyinka
EDIT: Something just struck me. I have a strong suspicion the fact that a lot of builds don't survive for a long time is that most of the things buildable in SL are form over function, because we all know how well "function" works in SL with the currect limitations. After all when you build something it's cool, wether it has function or not, the first few weeks it might be cool too, but how long are you going to keep around a build that has no inherent function?

Sure, builds can be used for "hanging out", but project makers don't need to spend oodles of tier money to keep -their- hangout around when social hangouts in SL are a dime a dozen anyway.

This is the primary difference between LL developing a world and LL developing a platform. They opted to pursue the former two years ago. Yes it belongs to them (I wouldn't presume to claim that it's "our" world) and they can do whatever they please. But it leaves us building beautiful, dream inspired creations and then wondering what we can possibly do with them. The answer, unfortunately, is very little until LL throw some platform love in the mix.

Everything has focused on recruiting and retaining new residents for nearly the past two years. Techs and oldbies need retaining too.
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Ingrid Ingersoll
Archived
Join date: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,601
10-02-2005 07:55
From: Khamon Fate
Techs and oldbies need retaining too.


*Throws a glass case over Khamon

There, I just retained an olbie.
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Emma Soyinka
Got moo? o_o
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 218
10-02-2005 08:18
From: Khamon Fate
This is the primary difference between LL developing a world and LL developing a platform. They opted to pursue the former two years ago. Yes it belongs to them (I wouldn't presume to claim that it's "our" world) and they can do whatever they please. But it leaves us building beautiful, dream inspired creations and then wondering what we can possible do with them. The answer, unfortunately, is very little until LL throw some platform love in the mix.

Everything has focused on recruiting and retaining new residents for nearly the past two years. Techs and oldbies need retaining too.

Well I can predict their retention won't stay up as much as they like until they implement some more platform. But then, is everyone like me? I am a builder not for the sake of building (although that can be quite fun too at times) but for the result. I make art for games, I make pixel art for games, I texture for games, I model for games, I write code for games. I rarely simply make "art for art's sake". Sure it's good practice and sometimes pretty but what's the long term gain and pride you get for it?

An actual working product that people truly enjoy (so far I've only managed to really finish one of those) is what I want to do, not something that is only form and no function, with nothing but marginal "oooo pretty" drive-by-value. That's why I'm feeling really dissapointed with SL lately, since nothing beyond shopping and socializing seem to have more than drive-by-value.

I suspect I'm not the only one who feels that way. But I don't know that for sure.
Lisse Livingston
Mentor/Instructor/Greeter
Join date: 16 May 2004
Posts: 1,130
10-02-2005 08:28
From: Rose Karuna
I was feeling pretty low this week, not just about SL but just about things in general I guess. Some RL stuff too - health issues and all (a brain's a terrible thing to lose, in the immortal words of our former VP Dan Quayle and after all the tests I've been through I have to agree)..


Rose, what a lovely story! I was thinking of you just last night as I was bringing my web site up to date, and saw your name in the section where I was recommending landscape services to residents. :)
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Joseph Proudfoot
Proud Tsalagi
Join date: 2 Sep 2004
Posts: 234
10-02-2005 09:07
From: Pendari Lorentz
Enabran, you should join Neualtenburg! :D


Neu"ALT"enburg? :eek: :eek: :eek:


Note: This is meant in jest, due to a poll started on just this subject. No flaming, please.

Peace,
Joseph
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
10-02-2005 10:23
I'm not sure I get this business about "platform" vs "world" and what is supposedly lacking in the "platform" part.

The idea of "form" vs "function" is easier to understand. But take Spitooney: There was function there as well as form; that is, there was plenty to DO there. Ditto Touchstone, with the dumping tank and the rocket ship and all. Ditto the self-contained games like Dark Life. Ditto lots of the sporting type things.

The stuff I build would be more fun if I could script the things I make, or if I had a scripter who could implement the ideas (few though they are) that I get but just can't do. (Any takers?) As it is, though, the "function" part of the houses I make pretty much takes care of itself, as their function is to be lived in, until one gets tired of that house and buys another.

So what, specifically, are we lacking in terms of "function?"

coco
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Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
10-02-2005 10:33
From: Joseph Proudfoot
Neu"ALT"enburg? :eek: :eek: :eek:


Note: This is meant in jest, due to a poll started on just this subject. No flaming, please.

Peace,
Joseph



hehe.. you should see the ALTenburg section of the city. ;) :p
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Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
10-02-2005 12:10
From: Cocoanut Koala
So what, specifically, are we lacking in terms of "function?"

Should I list all these things again?

/me strums fingers and thinks

What would it accomplish?
Who would read it?
Who would care?

No, it's not.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
10-02-2005 12:39
From: Khamon Fate
Should I list all these things again?

/me strums fingers and thinks

What would it accomplish?
Who would read it?
Who would care?

No, it's not.

Well, it would educate me, since I'm not sure what it is you are talking about. If someone would like to answer my question and explain this to me, I would appreciate it. (And I will read it.)

coco
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David Valentino
Nicely Wicked
Join date: 1 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,941
10-02-2005 13:09
I used to be a very active member of the community (if a bit on the mature content end), and a very active member of the forums, but now I seem to be torn, or struggling, with my feelings for SL.

It is a wonderful creation. It does allow for great creativity. There are many fascinating folks here. I could jump back in neck deep and really get involved again. So why don't I?

Perhaps it is too wide-open for me? I can see so many possibilities, but haven't all the needed skills to make them happen. And that would lead to struggling to learn the skills or find someone to help me. Perhaps I need things more automated. Perhaps I need to level up and have clear goals. I don't know.

Now, I find myself meloncholy, or even sad, when I spend time within SL. Something is missing for me there. I don't think it's friendship or love, because I have both. And I am still active enough within a fringe area of the community to make me feel as though I'm at least doing something productive, or to help, or being creative.

The lack of new and creative events is part of it. And of course, doing them myself would be partly a solution, but again, I'm hesitant to put in that much effort. Scanning the events listing itself can make me feel a bit depressed. There are still some gems, but not many.

Perhaps it is that I've lost my sense of community within SL. It has grown so much and I've lost touch with those that I used to identify with the community. I miss Cannibis Cathedral, or the late-night pool parties before there was a cathedral. And even if they were to return, or if I found another good group of fine folk that had such, would I feel the excitement or joy that I once did at such gatherings?

The money focus by LL, as both advertising and growth planning and development has had a bit to do with it. I think the Poetry contests and Building contests have been replaced by Yard Sales and Mall Openings for the most part. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just that it's not where my head is at when I enter SL.

Overall, it still bounds in creativity, but it doesn't feel like a brave new world so much anymore, as a brave new business opportunity or cheap dating service.

Perhaps it's lost some true class and style along the way, some elegance and mystery, some close-knit companionable element for me. But I still return, and I still can honestly say that it is wonderous in it's ways.

I think the most excitement I feel about SL these days is telling others about it, or explaining to a new person all the possibilities. Why I don't continue to feel that when it's my turn to roam this virtual world is a puzzle.

(And yes, I do explore, and yes, I have cut down my time greatly.)
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Emma Soyinka
Got moo? o_o
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 218
10-02-2005 13:18
From: Cocoanut Koala
Well, it would educate me, since I'm not sure what it is you are talking about. If someone would like to answer my question and explain this to me, I would appreciate it. (And I will read it.)

coco

Because I'm feeling in a blunt mood:

LL and SL give you all the tools you need to make activities and even full blown games that can even mimic features of commercial hit games.

And if a games review magazine would take a look at the average game in SL they would rate it's playability/gameplay a 1 out of 10. Why? Not for lack of skill on builders' side, but because the SL engine starts things out so crappily that the best even miraculous builders can do is crank it up to a 3 out of 10. You can make games, and you can make activities, but thanks to the engine and it's limitations, the gameplay sucks.
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
10-02-2005 13:44
OK, so you are talking about things like: I went to Chinatown but couldn't really do any of it because of the lag and whatnot, and others, with better systems still couldn't do it right because of the technical limitations that meant their shooting and stuff didn't work right either? And the things about vehicles, and the things about Sim crossing, and all that kind of stuff. And the things about people doing things like Dark Side and whatnot, but it doesn't work as well like things like that do in, say, Anarchy Online.

That is what is meant by functionality? Along with lag, and not more than 30 people together at once (and then to much lag) and all that, right?

I came from TSO and my idea of functionality was being able to write things in the game where people could see them, rather than having to click on something and get the equivalent of a notecard. We were told we couldn't have that because we might "write dirty words" which didn't make much sense really.

And of course the building is light years above and beyond what one could achieve creatively in TSO (though we certain squeezed every last bit of creativity out of what we had to work with).

So, I guess it's more the other stuff, mentioned above, that is meant here by "functionality" over "form."

I would point out, though, that functionality is probably a lot better in things like Anarchy Online because everything in that is already made, and made to be functional, by the game makers - whereas everything here is made by us and ever-changing. Would I be right in saying that?

coco
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Emma Soyinka
Got moo? o_o
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 218
10-02-2005 14:30
Yes, that is exactly what I mean. And yes functionality is also being able to build things, and being able to script something to give you a notecard if you touch it, and all that jaz. But the thing is, clicking something to get a notecard isn't precisely an engaging activity.

I know suggesting this will be an affront to many SLers' sensibilities, but unfortunately it is true that most people who are into games and most people who will end up ever even hearing about SL are also the type of people that at least occasionally want to do smoothly running, fun activities.

Wrestling with the controls in SL to pilot a vehicle of any sort is only fun if you like the challenge of being able to do what you want despite the lag and the fact the controls aren't all that and a stick of butter. As for things performing better in games made to do that thing, yes, agree completely. SL will never be Doom 3, and it need not be. SL will never be Gran Turoismo 258397534.5, and it need not be.

What SL needs is to have enough support of activities that people are obviously interested in inside SL like shooting, vehicles, etcetera, so these activities can actually run smoothly enough to become fun instead of a fight with the SL client. I'm sure the following question is hilarious considering my indy game design experiences, and the vast difference between There.com and SL's structural and technological differences but...

SL and There.com both have inherent support for vehicles. People I've met in SL have professed to having tried There and liking their vehicles, and not liking them much at all in SL. Why is SL so far behind? Why can't something that LL built in themselves such as vehicles run well enough to be engaging?

I'm sure there are myriad of reasons for why they can't, but the plain fact of the matter is that I tend to like cruising around on bikes, in cars, flying planes, zipping around on a hoverboard, but I do not enjoy these activities in SL. Then there's something wrong with the picture and efficiency becomes an obvious concern. When things cease being fun, there is something wrong, no matter how many excuses you come up with it.

I'm sure pointing out some of the flaws in SL will make me wildly impopular with those who really love it, and they're entitled to love it, but SL currently doesn't support function to such a degree that it appeals to a wide market of consumers, no matter how good the building, scripting, socializing or shopping may be.

EDIT: And what's worse? It claims that it does, leading to a heap of dissapointment in people new to the game who find that it doesn't match up to what LL told them it would be at all.
Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
10-02-2005 14:51
From: Cocoanut Koala
Well, it would educate me, since I'm not sure what it is you are talking about. If someone would like to answer my question and explain this to me, I would appreciate it. (And I will read it.)

coco


Let me sum up the response you get already.

A platform is the archetecture you develop games and such for. Like Playstation2 and XBox are two platforms, and if you make games you make them with one game platorm in mind. So if I put and Xbox CD into my PS2, it wont work.

PS2, XBox and the next generation squeeze out as much performance from their games due to the platform being specifically for gaming. There aren't too many things you can do aside from physical damage to screw up the performance of the games (like downloading spyware to your computer or adding 150 active programs and not enough RAM)

Since th SL platform is not a gaming Platform, you cannot get that kind of performance out of it. SL is a Jack of all trades platform. So someone developing the most cutting edge games for PS2, XBox, Nintendo, or PC would be limited by the Platform that they can build the game for.

I am not a programmer, but it seems to me they are being asked to develop cutting edge games on a Commodore 64 or atari 2600 platform. As Emma said, it is not the fault of the developer they can only hit from 1-3 on a 10 scale for cool games, the platform simply doesnt support much more innovation in gameplay.

Also, I get frustrated because I am an idea guy. I can't script, build, texture, or much else besides my mastery of the plywood box. I have ideas, and even cash to pay for some of it, and plenty of land to house it, but collaberation, for whatever reason, is very limited and isolated.

TO make a good video game, you NEED such collaboration. Someone to do the models, someone to do the textures, a few people to script, and someone to keep all the elements in sync.

I attribute my personal malaise to my inability to do anything from within my own limitations and limitations in the community to network and collaborate. The "community" often complains about the platform not being adaquate for their chosen specialty, and people are flakey, so to hell with collaborations. Plus, there isnt much return on investment for people to calloborate to make something cool, yet accesible to all financial segments of the community.

I guess, SL being a Jack of All trades master of none, and people being aprehensive about sharing because some one was a flakey lying rip off asshole last time, is the glass cieling that may stop Sl from reaching that "next level" as a platform.

Maybe SL was meant to be just a pretty chat room, and it is just sinking in at some levels to some of us.

Or maybe the next development is right around the corner.

It really blew my mind recently when I found out SL is still trying to implement Havok2, and Havok 3 is now the current supported version. Even I had to give up windows98 recently...

I'm optimistic, so I just invested myself deeper into SL. Was on the fence trying to decide whether to pull out or go for it. I'm going to go for broke and hope it helps my malaise wear off. I just hope I can find some fresh new talented collaborators or old ones who want to get over whatever bad experience from past collaborations and try some new things.
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I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

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Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
10-02-2005 14:53
From: Emma Soyinka

I'm sure pointing out some of the flaws in SL will make me wildly impopular with those who really love it, and they're entitled to love it, but SL currently doesn't support function to such a degree that it appeals to a wide market of consumers, no matter how good the building, scripting, socializing or shopping may be.

EDIT: And what's worse? It claims that it does, leading to a heap of dissapointment in people new to the game who find that it doesn't match up to what LL told them it would be at all.


I concur!

Jack of All Trades Master of None
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I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

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Joseph Proudfoot
Proud Tsalagi
Join date: 2 Sep 2004
Posts: 234
10-02-2005 14:53
From: Emma Soyinka

Wrestling with the controls in SL to pilot a vehicle of any sort is only fun if you like the challenge of being able to do what you want despite the lag and the fact the controls aren't all that and a stick of butter. As for things performing better in games made to do that thing, yes, agree completely. SL will never be Doom 3, and it need not be. SL will never be Gran Turoismo 258397534.5, and it need not be.

What SL needs is to have enough support of activities that people are obviously interested in inside SL like shooting, vehicles, etcetera, so these activities can actually run smoothly enough to become fun instead of a fight with the SL client. I'm sure the following question is hilarious considering my indy game design experiences, and the vast difference between There.com and SL's structural and technological differences but...

SL and There.com both have inherent support for vehicles. People I've met in SL have professed to having tried There and liking their vehicles, and not liking them much at all in SL. Why is SL so far behind? Why can't something that LL built in themselves such as vehicles run well enough to be engaging?

.


The "smooth running vehicles" are one of the reasons I quit There. Too many kids driving these things. I could be standing there, speaking with a friend, when suddenly, some idiot cruises in and BAM, slams into me. Here, I have plenty of time to get away from them as they're wrestling with the controls. :D
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"Crime is a smudge on the face of our world, and I, my friend, I am the wet nap of justice!!" Something the Tick should have said.

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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
10-02-2005 15:39
From: Mulch Ennui
A platform is the archetecture you develop games and such for. Like Playstation2 and XBox are two platforms, and if you make games you make them with one game platorm in mind. So if I put and Xbox CD into my PS2, it wont work.

PS2, XBox and the next generation squeeze out as much performance from their games due to the platform being specifically for gaming. There aren't too many things you can do aside from physical damage to screw up the performance of the games (like downloading spyware to your computer or adding 150 active programs and not enough RAM)

Since th SL platform is not a gaming Platform, you cannot get that kind of performance out of it. SL is a Jack of all trades platform.

Finally! Someone has explained that "platform" business! (I still think SL is a game, though.)

I guess I'm used to working within limitations. In TSO, for example, where we did eerything possible with every little thing, and then some! And it helps that I'm not interested in creating a game; just in building stuff.

But I do think there need to be other things here besides building/scripting or buying. People need more to do than just sit around and go ooo ahhh at what others have made, or go shopping for it, or just chat, imo.

coco
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
10-02-2005 19:02
From: Joseph Proudfoot
The "smooth running vehicles" are one of the reasons I quit There. Too many kids driving these things. I could be standing there, speaking with a friend, when suddenly, some idiot cruises in and BAM, slams into me. Here, I have plenty of time to get away from them as they're wrestling with the controls. :D


You did know you could make yourself immune to that, right?
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Margaret Mfume
I.C.
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 2,492
10-02-2005 21:16
You know, Enabran has gone off to have fun as his alt while you're still here singing the blues.

(I mean red!)
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SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
10-02-2005 21:21
From: Mulch Ennui
I concur!

Jack of All Trades Master of None

It's not really a jack of all trades. Only a jack of some trades.

Jack of Some Trades Master of None
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Jarod Godel
Utilitarian
Join date: 6 Nov 2003
Posts: 729
10-03-2005 09:16
From: Cocoanut Koala
I'm not sure I get this business about "platform" vs "world" and what is supposedly lacking in the "platform" part.
Khamon asked me to try and explain the difference between "platform" and "world," so, because he once saved me from a rampaging bear, I thought I'd give it a shot. (There was no bear, but saying there was sounds a lot better than, "Oooh, goody, my favorite topic!";)

Basically, a platform is something -- be it software, fiction, or archetecture -- that you build on because it's stable. People refer to the web as a platform because a lot of what we see these days isn't so much software for the sake of software, it's businesses and communications sitting atop software services. The web is a good business platform, because you can put up a web page for your local store, and instead of waiting for foot traffic to do business, you can accept emails and phone calls as a way of helping customers; all because you built on a platform that expanded your business to the whole world. The web is a good communications platform because almost everyone has a web browser, and because of that you can easily create interfaces that look and function similarly on a PC, Macintosh, cellphone, etc. It's all because groups of people agreed on several sets of standards that gave applications like blogs, message boards, etc. a standard, stable platform on which to work.

A world, by my definition, is a self-contained environment where beings can funtion, interact, and live. Your avatar, and you by this extension, lives in Second Life. It knows people in Second Life, goes to places in Second Life, owns things in Second Life, and can no more leave Second Life than you can leave Earth. And that's what Linden Lab wanted, a self-contained world where people could go, and get away from real life.

The difference in the two, and why I support "platform" over "world," is that with a platform you can build worlds. Going back to the web as an example, how many "worlds" have been built online because the web is stable, HTML is standard, and everyone has a browser? How many roleplaying groups, fan fiction writers, Star Wars communities exist and spin out new worlds daily? As someone who's fed up with the official "world" of comic books, I can assure you that there are a lot of fan-made worlds on the web.

And that's just with text.

Imagine if Linden Lab didn't try to build a world, but instead focused on building a platform. If they didn't think if terms of one-grid, one-world, but instead thought in terms of letting individuals build worlds -- change the slogan from "Your world, your imagination" to "Your worlds, your imaginations" and it makes more sense.

What's lacking from the "platform" part is exactly the same thing that drives people to creating their own microcosm worlds with their own versions of Batman, the C.S.I. crew, and such: the freedom to be stable, the freedom to build your own world on a stable system.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
10-03-2005 09:27
OK, I think I get it! Thanks, Jarod! (And Khamon! ;) )

coco
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Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
10-03-2005 11:24
Thank You Jarod. My platform descriptions include too many examples of necessary features. People argumentatively focus on them individually rather than seeing the larger view and I come off as The Newbie Consuming Khamodic Destroyer of Businesses and Telehubs.
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