Content on Mature Sims
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Josh Starseeker
Typical SL addict :)
Join date: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 111
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02-26-2003 10:44
And now for my own two cents...
I can't believe those of you who continue to act as if Jack is the only minor in SL...he may be the only *officially* admitted minor, but I know for a fact there are other minors running around in this world. So kicking Jack out at this point will do absolutely no good...as we must behave as if there are minors in SL at all times. The process of applying for a beta account has no provison for verifying a person's age, and until such measures are put into place, both for incoming players and the ones already in-world, we must act as if there are minors in SL, in both PG and Mature sims, whether Jack is around or not.
As much I am for free expression and all that, I am decidely uncomfortable with mature content in SL at this point in time, so I'm firmly behind the efforts of all of you out there who have taken the time and trouble to remove adult material from SL this past week. If LL gets nailed with a lawsuit, it could very well mean an end to SL, so it's important for all of us to do what we can to prevent the minors that we know are in SL from being exposed to adult material, although I don't think unclothed av's count...just actual uploaded images of nude people and sexually suggestive objects / conversations, etc.
The day will come when the ages of the players will be confirmed and limited to the PG areas...I've heard this time and time again..it's just a matter of time and more work on the part of the Lindens. I know many of you are dissappointed not having the freedom of expression we were led to believe when we applied to SL...I about fell out of my chair when one of the people I had been chatting with admitted he/she was under 18...but again, with no age verification system in place *yet*...I guess I shouldn't have so suprised that there would be minors running about in SL...
In summary, I think it's just best for all of us to restrain ourselves to PG-related activities until such time has come when all the minors in-world have been identified and measures taken so that they are limited to PG areas only. This is a system very much still in the process of being built, so I guess we have deal with this set of circumstances for the time being. Given a modest amount of cooperation from us beta testers, we can get through this "rough spot" without further difficulty and get SL to where we want it to be in the future. Just give the Lindens a bit of time, please...
J
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feniks Stone
At the End of the World
Join date: 25 Nov 2002
Posts: 787
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02-26-2003 10:47
As Tracey said this has little to do with Jack as an individual and legal papers signed or not, I know he is under age and I certainly will and can not behave the same way around him as if he were an adult. Jack does frequent mature sims, what's to stop him? So this is more than just a concern.
I do not have minors in my RL entertainment scenarios and seeing that I consider SL entertainment, I am not pleased that minors are present my mature sim.
I really like the idea of flagging minors. I also think that barring minors from entering a mature sim should be a requirement. Barring individuals under 18 from seeing textures in a mature sim will not work well, seeing textures is an extremely small part of this issue.
SL is very cool and there is a place for both adults and children. But not always the same place.
fen-
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Kerstin Taylor
Goddess
Join date: 13 Dec 2002
Posts: 353
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02-26-2003 10:52
Robin -- Wow! I wish this was a trivia contest, cuz I know who painted the pic you're using as your av in the forum. It's Georgia O'Keefe. I can't remember the name of it, but she used to lay under that tree for hours and look up and contemplate, and then painted the tree from her perspective. She was rather young when she painted it -- in her 20s I think.
You've made my day for both the content of your post, and for using one of my fav artist's pic.
On the content of your post, ** In the meantime, please continue to let us know what you think, and what would meet your needs. Also, we will work with Jack to make sure that he is able to participate in Second Life without risk to him or to you. **
This issue is obviously of grave concern to many of us, and primarily from a moral/ethical/values standpoint along with the legal aspects.
The measures that will be put into place at go-live sound great. But...
The beta testers are frequently told by Linden in the midst of a 'crisis' that measures and features will be implemented in the future. That's certainly reassuring. What's difficult is knowing what to do in the meantime. To help us know what to do in the meantime as these things arise, it would be helpful if Linden would tell us what they are willing and able to do during that 'meantime'. The answer may be 'nothing', but at least we would know what we are working with, and can make decisions accordingly.
In this situation, many of us are at a loss about what all this means from Linden's standpoint. We're getting double messages, and we need clarification from Linden.
Also, unfortunately, this particular minor is absolutely determined to get into places he shouldn't be. It would be far different with a minor who wanted to avoid adult content. This minor not only seeks it, but is seemingly willing to use any means to get to it. Examples: - When an adult on a mature sim put in place a warning system so that people engaged in adult activities or conversation could stop if the minor came into close proximity for the minor's protection, the minor, to put it simply, raised holy hell with Linden, until a Linden came and deleted the warning system. The minor then made a beeline for what has become known as the hub of adult activities and strolled right in the front door! - When a decision was made to disallow the minor in a private chat room that has been established for SL adult beta testers, at the first opportunity the room was opened up last night to guests, the minor was in there -- even using a series of misrepresentative names. I mean this kid was in there within minutes of the room opening.
There are a number of responsible adults in here, such as myself, who enjoy adult activities and conversations, AND are more than willing to take measures to protect this child. No one that I know of is seeking out Jack to corrupt his morals. Rather, everyone I know is trying to prevent Jack from putting himself into a situation that could be harmful to him. And yes, there are concerns about protecting ourselves legally, and acting according to our consciences.
When Jack's parents signed those papers did they know that their son had in the past, and was going to continue, to deliberately, proactively, and systematically attempt to access adult content and engage in adult activities and conversation? When Linden signed those papers did they know?
It just would be far easier for all concerned, if we have to have a minor in here, to work with a reasonable, mature child who was seeking to avoid adult content. With this child, it is more a matter of protecting him from himself, than protecting him from the adults in here.
Frankly, personally, I resent it -- it makes me feel as if I'm doing his parents' jobs for them -- that they signed a paper, tossed it at Linden, and are at home relaxing, while we watch their son's activities and try to keep him out of trouble and keep him from hurting himself. The difference is, his parents can apply consequences to Jack for his inappropriate behavior, and we can not. It torques my buns. I'm here to have fun -- not to babysit a child determined to engage in age-inappropriate behaviors. Further unfortunately, my conscience dictates that I must -- I can't put it aside and say to hell with him. I care about, and feel a responsibilty toward, all children.
It would also be far easier to work with Jack and with Linden, if Linden would not facilitate this child's attempted forays into adult entertainment spots, by deleting measures people responsibly put into place, without even talking to the people involved.
We need Linden to work with us, now, in that meantime you mentioned, Robin. You say Linden will work with Jack. I hope Linden will also work with the other 60 or so beta testers who who are inworld every night. If we can not put up a warning system, what can we do that Linden will allow? Is it possible to have an inworld discussion about this? If we post ideas on the means we could take to protect this child and ourselves, can we count on a response from Linden on whether or not those means are ok?
Robin, thanks for listening.
Beta testers, if when I said 'we' I misrepresented you, I apologise. I'm only trying to get across that I am not the only responsible adult trying to act responsibly, and no one should take this as literally representative of anyone except myself.
Thanks all - Kerstin
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Tracey Kato
Royal PITA
Join date: 26 Dec 2002
Posts: 400
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02-26-2003 11:05
Kerstin, count me as a "we". I agree. But I think you already knew that.
-TK
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Misnomer Jones
3 is the magic number
Join date: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1,800
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02-26-2003 11:05
Kerstin.... Well said.
I think that many of us are trying hard to do "the right thing" here. It's lucky so far for Jack that he HAS encountered adults who care enough to raise a stink about this issue.
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Rivn Epoch
Senior Member
Join date: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 207
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02-26-2003 11:20
Well this may come to a shock to alot of you that is if your a longtime member of this community , me and Kerstin RARELY see eye to eye on ANYTHING and even in alot of the posts in this thread and the related ones you can see digs at posts I made from her BUT I said NOTHING in return directed towards her... I have Basically avoided her like the plague....
So here is why you will be surprised....The last Post she has Made in this thread I agree with 100%...things MUST be done and answers to our questions and concerns must be made by Linden Labs ASAP...
simply saying that sometime in the future this or that will be done is just not enough, we need answers and answers NOW.... this is a VERY serious matter in legal terms as well as ethical and moral concerns... We are here to test this game and all of its possabilities good bad or indifferent, we are NOT however here to be someones babysitter, the rateing system for SIMS are USELESS unless the person seing the warnings are willing to heed that said warning, if the person or persons are NOT willing to abide by the meanings of the SIM rateing system and are known Minors they should not be allowed to be here ...
It is NOT descrimination to that Minor or minors , it is simply being a person with legal moral and ethical values that made attemts to keep them away or be warned of the presence of Minors when they made a warning system..why it was deleted is far beyond my comprehention...simply makes no sence whatsoever
someone most definatly dropped the ball on this one when they deleted that warning system
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Bel Muse
Registered User
Join date: 13 Dec 2002
Posts: 388
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02-26-2003 13:25
Robin, of all the proposed protections mentioned, I'd have to vote for "- barring individuals under 18 from entering a mature sim,"
The others don't seem to address what kind of behaviors are actually possible between players who have decided to engage in sexual behavior.
It's not appearing only in textures (which suggests you think we are uploading sexual content, rather than creating it in-world)
It's not just conversations (and would have to account for conversations that don't even involve the minor. For instance, I am in a building. The individual in question walks by and over hears a conversation meant for the people inside the building. So now my conversation is monitored, because a minor happened to walk by? No thanks.)
The problem is that we can put the avatars themselves into sexually explicit positions. (so a minor, blind to textures, flagged and spied on, could still wander onto a mature server where another player could wave a giant penis in their face and proceed to engage them in other sexual acts.)
And flagging "minor" avatars only targets them as prey for unscrupulous players. (and I'm sure would severely limit the gaming possibilities for minor players, part of their fantasy is to be someone else too. As long as they don't try to be someone having sex, i'm all for their right to function as equals in all other aspects of SL.)
Just keep underage players out of mature sims. It's a 3D experience, and addressing controls to only certain aspects of the experience is just not enough.
And there are two sides to this controversy as well...It's not just the minor looking and deciding whether it's ok for them to see such-and-such sight. It's whether adults want to be observed by minors. As someone put it, there are people on other side of keyboard. Do "I" want to be seen naked by certain people, do "I" want certain behaviors to be observed by certain folks. Probably not. In order to make a space that is enjoyable for certain activities, the adults have to feel "safe" as well.
Please commmit to creating an "adults-only space". It's what I anticipated when I understood that the sims were rated.
It doesn't have to be large or fancy, if you say we will only protect this hole in the ground on the Second Saturday of every month with an "r" in it...then fine. I will confine my "adult" activities to those places and times.
But until there is a place where adults can make reasonable efforts to prevent minors from entering/listening/observing adult behavior, SL is all PG.
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Kerstin Taylor
Goddess
Join date: 13 Dec 2002
Posts: 353
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02-26-2003 13:54
what Bel said...
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Sinatra Cartier
From Beta to Zeta!
Join date: 8 Jan 2003
Posts: 533
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Yes Bel.
02-26-2003 15:24
I agree with your comment:
"Just keep underage players out of mature sims."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It doesn't have to be large or fancy, if you say we will only protect this hole in the ground on the Second Saturday of every month with an "r" in it...then fine. I will confine my "adult" activities to those places and times. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like it to be both Large and Fancy! Thank you very much.
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Mickey Roark
Early Beta/Charter Member
Join date: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 103
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02-26-2003 15:37
On what Bel said...
Ditto. She has thought this through quite well. I support her position and concerns, and final statement that until the Lindens make a move to deal with these concerns, all of SL is a PG area.
On what the Lindens have (and have not) said...
I am sure that their corp. lawyers have all this under review, and until their position is set (and we may never get to know thier 'postion' only the rules they set in the 'EULA' and community standards), their lawyers are probably having them say very little, so as not to put themselves in a corner. I do not fault them for this, if it were my company, I would probably do the same thing.
Technologically they can put most any control in place that they and or 'we' would want. They also have to weigh the commercial impacts as well as the legal impacts. This gives them many issues to balance, as there are many ways to cover the legal aspect, but many of those could impact the commercial value of the game. So to find a way that protects them and us (as long as we don't do illegal things in the game), and protect and nurture the commercial and popular viability of the game takes time.
We have essentially found a 'bug', that they expected to deal with (but maybe not this soon). Unfortunately we will have to wait for their solution(s) to be put into place. These may be any combination of technology, EULA, community standards, user authentication, and legal positioning.
In my short time here I have found the Linden team to be more responsive to the input, ideas, and feedback from the beta testers than any of the other software and hardware betas I have been involved with over the past 25 years. I have at this point a high trust in the Lindens, in that they will make it clear when they have a 'solution' in place, we will all know what it is and how it affects users in SL.
Until then we will have to be patient.
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Nicole Miller
Pixel Pervert
Join date: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 185
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02-27-2003 07:58
I agree with Bel also.
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Wednesday Grimm
Ex Libris
Join date: 9 Jan 2003
Posts: 934
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Me too (what is this, AOL?)
02-27-2003 08:23
I agree with Kerstin, Mickey, Nicole and Sinatra.
Also, I would like to add that safe is boring.
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Wolfie Money
Registered User
Join date: 7 Feb 2003
Posts: 9
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03-01-2003 10:18
Damn, I'm late...I agree with Bel, Nicole, Sinatra, Wednesday, and many more people
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Kyalisu Sunchaser
Registered User
Join date: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4
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03-20-2003 12:53
I hate to say this. If it touches a nerve with anyone, I apologize. If it upsets the person in question, I'm sorry. If it's been said before, deal.  Put forth, plain and simple: The EULA states that the age limit for the beta is 18. This person is under 18. This person is breaking the EULA. If this is not the case, then the EULA needs to be changed to reflect this. Otherwise, /kick 'em. Perhaps there should be some sort of age verification... SS# lookup, perhaps. This should be implemented during beta (and let the kid stick around to see if it works). If underage users are going to be allowed, steps could be taken to "protect" them from content that's illegal for them to see. It could range from an invisible barrier that prevents the ava from entering the Mature sim or even making all objects within the sim invisible to anyone with the underage flag. Simply put, (much like the real world) there should be a way for us to enjoy the freedom we have been given without worrying if we are breaking any laws. I feel like I'm rambling. Therefore, I'll shut up.
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Alexis Fairchild
SL Event Junkie
Join date: 7 Mar 2003
Posts: 218
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03-20-2003 16:02
This might sound like an absurd question... but is there a way to set up temporary blocking of minors from mature sims? This might be a way to possibly handle the situation, and doesn't hurt the people who want to add more adult content in mature sims.
Say that Jack logs in, and when he does, a temporary block into mature sims goes up for him until he logs off, then it drops. This way, the mature sim builders could put what content they want without fear of any prosecution.
This, however, causes a bit of a problem... what if someone holds an event which wouldn't have any adult content, but yet takes place in a mature sim? I know that the Disco is located in Da Boom, a mature sim... I held a trivia contest there, but if minors get blocked, they couldn't participate in it. What if there was a dance competition? The Disco would be a perfect place, however minors couldn't compete because the contest location is in a mature sim.
There are so many gray areas that could cause a bit of a headache for the Lindens... just something I thougt about.
Bye bye for now, Alexis
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Haney Linden
Senior Member
Join date: 3 Oct 2002
Posts: 990
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03-20-2003 16:13
We do plan to introduce a feature that exclude minors from mature regions
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Phaylen Fairchild
Second Life Artifact
Join date: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 196
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03-21-2003 10:43
I am what you may still consider a newbie, although I have fully immersed myself in what is already a very enabling world. I have a shop in Natoma and just opened one in Hawthorne. Regarding minors involved and/or engaging in sexually explicit activities, I can tell you that I know it is still happening. Many of us who come to the game come in waves, we learn together, create social circles, and get to know each other. It was a few days ago that one player, who is a regular in the mature section, told me he was 16.
This disturbed me a great deal. While I have no sexually explicit props to sell, nor do I engage in sexually over behavior, the thought that should I ever be so inclined to do so does not seem condusive with the known presence of a child. I have too teenage nephew that live with me. They play Dark Age Of Camelot. I play SL. They are not allowed access to the SL. While they are 15 and 16 I still feel the majority of the content, both on the mature sims and in instances on some PG sims is far to suggestive for me to feel comfortable knowing they would have access, and could lie, and they're teenage boys, they would do what many other kids would.. click 'next.'
Both morally and ethically I think SL is inherently an adult oriented game. As adults it is very easy to forget that the full grown Avatar with the five o'clock shadow has school the next day, or has a bedtime. Personally I think that SL should be rated 'Mature.' Let the children play a more limited and defined game like The Sims Online.
While generally I am not offended by anything in SL, and I enjoy the company of mature players and respect those who do engage in secually explicit activities, it is certainly not for kids, and it is all but impossible to bar them from any areas because you will always have parents who just want them out of their hair. A 'Mature" rating would at least put Linden under a protective banner... despite those youngsters who will infiltrate the barriers at all cost... it is fair warning, without room for misunderstanding.
Also it will benefit us all. Having played MMORPG's in the past and even beta tested some of the more mainstream, I can tell you the enjoyment factor was gravely diminished by hordes of immature, antagonistic, and foul mouthed 13 year olds. Grated that form of entertainment for them in more embracing, but in the SL medium it could be very costly. I enjoy the fact that I am playing with like-minded individuals. That people, for the most part (Save thee only one in particular.) isn't abusing the rating system, or impeding on the space of other players who are just there to partake of what Linden has offered us.
It really is a double edged sword. If you integrate minors into this atmosphere, you risk many, many liabilities, and if you censor those of a more adult persuasion, you risk losing a very wide mainstream player base. Let's face it, there is not really many games out there for those over the age of eighteen, and the few that are find themselves more inclined to audacious and often lude catagorizatiions. Currently I find SL a comfortable atmosphere, abundant with opportunity, a collective result of creativity and motivation put forth by kind, considerate and fun loving adults. Making the entire game rated 'Mature' is the only way to directly squelch potential liabilities while providing those who wish to actually play that side of the aspect a blanket of security so they may be entertained by the service without refrain.
Phaylen
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Misnomer Jones
3 is the magic number
Join date: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1,800
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03-21-2003 10:52
There are other games out there that do have a screening process for age. I have no idea how effective it is but they use paypal as verification with a minimal transaction (a dollar or less, I dont recall). I think another option was sending a copy of an ID. Im sure its not too hard to copy mommy or daddys liscense esp in the age of fax & copy machines in the home but still, I agree something needs to be done to close this gap.
The original person in question is gone.. or are they? Several people have several accounts. There's no reason that person couldnt have just opened another account with another name.
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