Content on Mature Sims

I thought the discussion on sexually explicit content in mature sims deserved a thread of its own.

My own opinion is that where I cannot be reasonably assured that I am dealing with like-minded consenting adults, then I cannot ethically display or engage in sexual activities.

When I began exploring this aspect of SL, I was under the impression that all participants of SL were 18 years or older. When it came to my attention that in some cases a teenager lied about their age, I was immediately concerned, but thought with care and attention, such persons could be identified and steered away.

Recently, however, events have played out that make it clear to me I cannot maintain an "adults-only" area anywhere in the game. So I have decided to remove all the sexually-explicit material from my property.

Hopefully, at some point in the future, there will be features and/or enforced policies that make it possible for me to feel comfortable with mature activities on mature sims.

I retract, and apologize for, this entire post, I wrote it without fully understaning the situation and circumstances. I may or may not still feel that some of the things said here are ture, but given their misguided context, I will, for the time being, retract them along with the rest of the post.

-Pat Murphy

I retract, and apologize for, this entire post, I wrote it without fully understaning the situation and circumstances. I may or may not still plan on engaging in the activities described here, but until I better understand the legal consequences, I plan to refrain from them.

-Pat Murphy

I hope Jack sees it, claims hes scarred for life, and has Daddy sue you. Then when you get out of jail, you can pay him for the rest of your life to exist. That would make me feel better and I can say I told you so.

Xavier

Real avs is funny, but I think the booths are a little bit much

Boo to that. If it were up to me, I would say that everyone just use common sense. Also, cars should run on water and produce cotton candy as exhaust.

Pat,
I have to disagree with you that 'adult' content and activities should be locked away. The rules of conduct say anything goes on mature sims so long as it is legal. Unless and until the rules of conduct change, I see no reason to hide adult content and activities away. To me what you are saying is like "Don't wear the color blue outside your house, even though it's legal, because some people don't like the color blue". They know what's there, and they know what they need to do to avoid it.

However, all of that refers to the way we thought it was going to be. Now that we have a known minor, I don't know what we should do, and so far Linden has offered no assistance in the matter.

The problem here is when we read the rules of conduct and joined up, we expected, until go-live, to pretty much do as we please (provided it's legal) on mature sims. We were told that by go-live measures would be in place to prevent (as best as possible) minors from going on mature sims.

Now we have a minor in our midst, without those built-in means of keeping him away from the mature sims. The real kicker is that Linden, rather than help us to do as our consciences dictate and protect the minor, and ourselves, has actually said that we are discriminating against the minor.

If somebody takes a pic of Jack's nude av engaged in sexual activity and posts it up, Linden -- and Jack's daddy -- will be singing a different tune.

I don't want to see all adult content deleted and all adult activities refrained from until go-live. What I think needs to happen is for Linden to work with us to protect this kid without unreasonably curtailing our activities. Dunno if that's forthcoming. And I guess if it must be, it must be.

Seems we're just plain stuck right now. But I sure don't want people interpreting the situation as it being ok to do as you please where there's a minor involved.

Please read my last post in "New Form Of Griefing". I will confine all future posts to this thread.

Thanks,

-TK

It appears to me that the rights of many are being overlooked for the rights of a few - or maybe even one. Seems even with the legal age disclaimer and the defined catagories of "mature" sims, those who wish to shape their Second Life with mature expressions of creativity feel they can not. It is a shame to see Bel take down her art.

There are real people behind the avatars and what ever legal rangling has happened, and with the statement of who is admittedly under age, and still in-game, has produced legal documents, that basically give him the status of a legal adult, within the context of the game, he is still a child. I can completely understands Bel's decision to do what she felt she needed to do. Isn't this same issue going to effect the way any adult would create and interact in SL? I can see why a minor alert was created, as way to protect ones own rights, and also protecting the children from what they should not be exposed to.

I also agree that minors should be locked out of mature sims, but how to verify a player’s age? I guess honesty is not the way to go.

fen-

Sexless 2nd Life?

hmmmmm...

Doesn't sound like much of one.

I know when SL hits the go-live stage they will have various ways of dealing with minors - including

1- of course the agreement that you must sign - probably with a note that for the profile actual age must be stated.

2- the use of credit cards for payment (or paypal) which helps to determine if the person is of a relatively legal age.

Now I know, both of these things can be bypassed. Many never read the agreement that comes with software, they just click "next" (and yes I count myself among the people who has done that at least once or twice in the past). And mommy and Daddy's credit cards can be used without the parent knowing it (or even if they do know, some parents just dont monitor if the child says "it's for a game".

So there really isnt a foolproof system. Never has been never will be.

Another game that I am creating texturing for is also in beta stage. in it, just to become a beta tester you *must* prove some sort of age verification. credit card (not billed), pay pall (not billed), or photocopy of drivers license sent in to them for verificiation. The last being the prefered. And while this is not anymore foolproof than the others, it is necessary. That game is flat out "adult orientated with explicit content".

Even for beta's they required tight security.

Does SL need to go this route? In some ways I say yes. In others, I hope not. I dont have any problem with underage testers. I just wish that the means to lock them out of the mature sims was already in place.


and as devils advocate... (relatively) ... I tried to get away with murder when I was underage. In one sense I can understand it, in another (looking back with 33 years under my belt), I just say "dont hurry to grow up, and dont think I'm taking the fall for ya!"

Well..... This issue is way bigger and more complicated than I thought, and I clearly had some serious misconceptions, I would like to retract my previous posts.
I'm researching and giving this topic some very serious thoughts, I will be posting my thoughts and opinions later.

In the meantime here are some questions:

Do state laws apply, and if so which states, the state the autor of the material is in, the state the minor is in, or the state where the data is stored in?

Check out state and federal obscenity laws here
(the part of the Federal Law about minors is way down at the bottom) Also note, its kinda of hard to determine what falls into the category of obscene materials. Some of the statutes make it sound like possession of any Obscene materials is illegal, so that makes me think these laws only apply to things like child porn. If I find a better resource I will post it.

-Pat Murphy

I would rather spend my VR life in Vegas than Disneyland.

How about two games, one for kids and one for adults?

I've been reading all these posts, and, I am very sorry that I caused so much trouble. I had no idea that by telling the truth it would actually hurt so many people. I thought it would be the right thing to do, but, instead, it has made everyone angry. If you wish, I will leave.

Jack, your presence just brings an inevitable point into the limelight, there are minors on SL, some known, some unknown.

All the questions this has brought up need to be asked.

You're case in and of itself is slightly different, since everybody knows you are a minor, and you are alloud in world, for reasons I'm not even sure I understand.

-Pat Murphy

So, I have made light of the situation for a while hoping it would die down. It has not. Let’s all try to remember the phrase Beta Test. I have spoken to some of the Lindens about this issue, and I for one am assured they are working hard on a solution. There will be features in the future to help parents protect their children. Right now, however it is a test. Just like we are all stretching the capabilities of the sims. We are all also finding our way through the maze of being good online citizens.
I do agree with Bel and to that fact I am taking the night off to stay home and clear out the second floor of my art gallery, While I feel I have the right to express myself I do not however have the right or need to educate and expose other peoples children to suggestive material.
When the game is in release however, let’s be honest it comes down to parental responsibilities. This is what I do for a living. I spend a lot of time in my work explaining to people that if they are not responsible for what their own children are doing it makes it impossible for others to act responsibly.
I know this is a frustrating topic for us all. We did however go into this with open eyes. It is a test. We did volunteer, and for now, there is no they (The Lindens) and us. We are all in it together so let’s work in a positive direction to figure it out.

Thai

I cant imagine what legal documents can be provided to make a 15 year old considered an adult ...
Did his father sign a release that stated he views his son an adult and will not prosecute for anything he is exposed to within the SL community?

If that is what was done ill tell you now for a matter of fact it will NOT hold water in a court of law!
You see a child is determind to be a child by the courts until age 18 , the parent has NO say of when someone is considered an adult!!

If the town you live in has a curfew (alot do) and you hand your kid a note saying he can go to the store at midnight to get a gallon of milk the law sees it as curfew broken and with your aid as the parent and you BOTH are in trouble!

The type of agreement my parents signed is called a "Release and Hold Harmless". Basically, it states that we won't sue Linden Lab for anything bad that could happen to me if I was to see anything bad or innappriate in Second Life.

I am willing to bet that if Linden Labs showed that to thier legal councel and asked 1 simple question they wouldnt allow that form change the polocies... that question to the legal council would or should be this ......Who is the determining factor whether or not a child has the LEGAL RIGHT to view /partake in activities otherwise reserved for adults, the Parent or the Courts?

and the answer would be this .....The Courts View a person under the age of 18 not permimisble to view or participate in Adult oriented materials and if allowing one to do so it is Punishable by fines and possible Jail terms, the form that was filled out is basically saying that the parent is contributing to the delinquency of thier own child and shows Just cause to serve them with the same actions as the proveyer of that said material (in this case Linden Labs) and the parent is KNOWINGLY allowing such materials to be viewed and acts possibly being comitted..... since the Beta testers are givin permission to " do as they see fit in the testing period in a mature sim" they should not be considered violators or contributers to those offences

im not sure that these same laws apply over the net as in my state BUT I am certain they are reasonably close to the same, especially considering we are dealing with Minors...

So, Linden Labs is theoretically covered. What about resident adults?

And Jack, we have had communication on this. This isnt (for me) about you as an individual. This (for me) is about the whole big picture. Nothing personal.

As with all of the many questions we have to think about in undertaking such an ambitious project as building an online society, the question of how to protect individuals under 18 from inappropriate or unwanted sexual attention is both difficult and critical. There are legal as well as ethical and moral considerations.

We set the age limit for the beta test at 18 because we are fully aware that not all of the protections we want to have in place for the final service are currently implemented. These protections could conceivably include actions such as:
- barring individuals under 18 from seeing textures in a mature sim,
- barring individuals under 18 from entering a mature sim,
- periodically monitoring chat (and especially IMs) for individuals we know are under 18 (with prior disclosure and within the bounds of reasonable privacy protection),
- even flagging them in some fashion so they are visibly recognizable as the teens of Second Life.

It's important to us that we meet the needs of both adults and teens. As Jack has shown us, teens can be important contributors to Second Life. When Second Life goes live, we are currently planning to admit anyone over the age of 13, assuming those between the ages of 13 and 18 have parental consent. When that happens we will have appropriate protections in place, for them and for you.

In the meantime, please continue to let us know what you think, and what would meet your needs. Also, we will work with Jack to make sure that he is able to participate in Second Life without risk to him or to you.

Two things

Firstly, Thank you Robin. It's good to know that Linden Labs is looking at this seriously and has plans to take steps to make the whole experince both an enjoyable and a safe one for everybody involoved. I know this is beta, and I know that running around screaming the sky is falling the sky is falling doesnt do anything but panic everyone else.

but speaking as one tiny chicken lil, I'm glad your taking steps to get us all a huge honkin umbrella by the time go-live hits us.

Secondly, lol though it may not seem like it at times - I agree with what Riven posted. The form that was signed is a nice gesture. But that's all it really is, a gesture. Parents who condon the possibility of their child being exposed to illegal material are not viewed in a positive light by the Departmets of Child Services.

Yes, The father by signing that cannot sue Linden Labs. However the authorities can come down on LL, on the Father, and even on one of us *if* it can be proved that we knowingly contributed.

Blanket denial's of responsibilities, and agreements that XXX company is not responsible look very interesting... but... think about napster, about kazaa, bearshare, music city morpheous, and even irc servers - all of these had the same blanket clauses denying any control or responsibility for the actions of the users... and look how many of them are coming under fire..

In this day and age denial of responsibility isnt enough. Nowadays you have to have a iron tight alibi, and virginal hands.

I was in the bahamas, eating in rome, the plane was late, I dont own the company, I'm blind, I'm sorry I dont speak english, the check is in the mail, I told them to stop, I wasnt aware it was going on, I wasnt born yet, I'm sorry is this domino's Pizza?

well put Jaxiam not many here ever agree with me not matter what I say !
Even if im the first to say it someone else can reiterate it and then they tell them that it was a good post or whatever lol
guess thats just the way it is around here when it comes to my point of view MOST of the time

but thats ok I have broad shoulders lol

Good to see everyone isnt narow minded

What the hell is wrong with you people - don't you have more important things to do than babysit Jack - Throw him out until you have the measures in place. You had it right the first time and screwed up by letting him back in.

Xavier

Jack, this has absolutely nothing to do with you as an individual. I liked you before, I like you now, although I’m a little disappointed in some of your actions.

However, what Xavier says is true and I agree 100%. You do not belong here!


-TK