Teens In SL

Actually, I was giving the general atmosphere of the forums of the last 8 or 9 "major" issues that have been brought up.

Every time something different is proposed by Linden Lab, folks with axes to grind and poor grammar skills crawl out of their BDSM dungeons/hidey holes/bomb bunkers/treehousen and wax poetic about the End of SL As We Know It (tm).

Thanks for the weak barb at calling me childish though, Anjilla. My ego and sense of self-worth reels at the insult.

LF

Oh LF I'm so very sorry that you took that as a barb at you. Geeze you guys in all actuality I WAS talking about adults going into tean grids as well as kids getting into the adult grids. In a perfect world all parents teach their kids right from wrong, but this world isn't perfect. I was just commenting that it would be sad to see something that the newspapers and magazines have said is "More than a game" because of this issue. Once again I'm terribly sorry you were soooooo horribly offended. Then again what's a good discussion without SOMEONE having to be offended and well.... yes childish. Anyway... Our opinions dont mean much to anyone anyway. As long as the money keeps flowing in it doesn't make a bit of difference. *hugs and kisses* LF look me up in game sometime. I'll be hiding in one of the BDSM dungeons LOL

You know, I always cringe when I see attempts at prejudiced expressions of superiority like this, even as jokes.

I have been educated to the n'th degree, but I would never dream of trying to put down those who haven't. The advantages of education do not come to you as a straight reward for your superior merit. They are denied to many through social and other circumstances well beyond their own control until it is (in realistic terms) too late for them to reverse. Even the realisation that education has something to offer may be difficult to achieve in some environments.

Maybe you will say it was tongue-in-cheek, Lordfly, but in my opinion it is a type of put-down best avoided, as it is a potential kick-in-the-face for something we do not choose, like race or gender.

OMG, so that's what my dream about your *PREEN* TEEN line was all about!!! No wonder you had a shop assistant.

Ignorance is a choice, not a genetic disposition..

You do not stop learning the second you graduate from high school. It's quite easy to go to the local library and bootstrap your understanding and grasp of your mother tongue.

Can't read? Hooked on Phonics or a multitude of other programs.

Can't write? Many many self-help resources online and at your local library/community college.

Can't type? Remedial keyboard skills at your local community college, or free programs online.

And so on.

LF

I'm sorry, LF, there are two sorts of people who would post like that.

Those who have always basked in privilege and advantage, and don't know the realities of life.

Those who had it hard, realised in time, and clawed their way to an education with big determination and sacrifice. They can lack any respect for those unwilling or unable (yes, unable) to do the same.

There is a huge spectrum of people outside either of these categories who have minor language difficulties, and do not deserve having someone trying to embarass and insult them into feeling unable to post their views to forum.

Nice arguing with someone intelligent, by the way <grin>.

Don't take me too seriously - I have a bit of fun releasing my argumentative "Jekyll" side on forum.
(or is it Hyde ? - I can never remember which is which)

Anyone ever played Toontown?

That is the PERFECT game for kids. They can't talk. It's as simple as that. They have a drop-down list of phrases or words they can say, but they can't type whatever they want. They can't import pictures, or make objects or anything. So thusly, no swearing, no porn, and no seducing small children into your land parcel because you lost your puppy ( ). If this is what the teen grid becomes, I would get my little brother to play it, and then he can have a second life too. Of cource, since SL is mostly a social game, you'd have to give them something to do other than picking phrases out of a drop-down list.

If the teen grid gets all the privelages of SL it would be the worst thing that ever happened. It would ruin Christmas. It really would. And eat babies. And all those bad things.

Why is this what it would be like? We mature people stick to the regular SL and have fun and all that nonsense, but you know who the only people in the teen grid would be? Nine-yr-olds and old men distributing porn. Because all the mature teenagers who signed up for the Second Life would be disappointed, and would then leave and go to the mature grid. It would be exactly the same as it is now, except that we'd have an extra grid for molesters and small children.

Personally, I would forget the whole thing. Honestly, do the kids bother you THAT much? The only people who ever bother me are the adults who haven't grown up on the inside. They're the ones with the penis guns. And yet, the mature kids who aren't doing anything to anyone are the ones who get banned. One of my best friends was banned last year. She never shot anyone with a penis gun. Why did she have to get banned? Why?

Here's another idea. Make the people who sign up for SL take an IQ test. Yeah, that's it. The idiots who would spend their time fashioning new penises to fire at people would fail the test on the first two questions. The mature teenagers would get to come in and have fun just like the rest of us.

Something has just occured to me.
Why the hell is it called a teen grid?
18- and 19-year-olds are still teens and yet they aren't put into seperate grids based on when they were born. I was 19 before the 30th last month. Did I run around firing penis guns because my age ends with teen? No.

Damn it, I've been ranting again, haven't I?

you still have to get rid of the porn and sex ingame and not allow certain animaions or allow the avatars to stip naked.

as i remember correctly introducing adulty material to a minor is still a crime

Exactly. If Old Man Winter gets the bright idea to give the kids in the Teen Grid some porn, first they'd be ridiculed, then a linden would be called, then he'd be arrested. And banned for life at the IP level (which won't matter because he'd be a registered sex offender living in prison anyway)

You guys don't give the lindens enough credit. If there's evidence of a crime happening (major ones... orbiting your avatar does not constitute a major crime), they're quick to respond.

LF

No, it wouldn't. Kids have been going into UNMODERATED, no-holds-barred chatrooms for something like 15 years now. Yahoo chat rooms, IRC, AOl chat rooms... all of these places are 100% unmoderated. And you know what? The kids are fine. The few assholes that try to wander in these rooms picking up kids usually get ridiculed out of the room in short order.



First, you have a false assumption that all of "us" on the teen grid are mature. Do you even READ the police blotter? Attacks with penis guns. Orbiting guns. Hate speech. Walking around as a penis. Shooting penis followers. Hardcore sex in the welcoming area. Firebombing a club. Verbal assault. And so on.

Age != maturity, except when according to US Law, which is why the lindens are separating the "legal kids" from the "legal adults".



Wow, okay. Got any proof of worlds that this has happened in? TSO? There? Activeworlds?

All three of those have an age limit of 13+. 13 year olds fraternizing with 37 year olds. OH NOES THE PRON AND THE MOLESTERINGZ!!!!

Wait, no. Human nature and social norms still apply, mostly. TSO is not a big child-porn distribution ring, neither is There, and neither was Activeworlds. Stop making gross assumptions about something that's not even been released yet.



No, the kids that go "OMG U R HAWT WAN 2 CYBER" to people in female avatars. They give away their age. I know quite a few kids in SL that, because of their maturity level, have been in SL forever. These are the ones that keep their heads down and not cause a ruckus. The kids that get banned ARE doing something... they're acting like hormonal-raged kids. THAT'S why they get banned.



She didn't keep her head down enough. She told someone she was underage that didn't enjoy the idea. WHoops, there she goes.



Not really... a person with a genius IQ can still fashion penis guns. Easily, in fact. And IQ scores simply determine your measured intelligence, not your social maturity.



The same reason a person can't (legally) have sex until the clock strikes midnight on their 18th birthday; US Federal Law. 18+ is considered "adult". 13-17 is teen. 12-under is child.

LF

im not here to argue but.. teenagers.. could are a pain (most anyway) and they are in secondlife as we speak.. a underground soceity of teens are in second life right now! but i havent heard many compliants about those teens. I'd say let them in, this gives them a chance to learn C++ programing. Although this may be a pain to us, lets just ignore it for now... Untill the teens rebel and... well.. yeah.. then we can take action..

in truth one of my friend i met on second life is a teen. 16 to be exact, he was more mature then some adults at parties. He wondered why thoses adults are acting childish. We all can point out a obivious child. They use stupid things to piss you off, but can u tell a real adult from a mature teenager. No, not really. the mis-behaved kids need to stay away from Second life. We need to think about second life as being an "educational program" for teens. Some will protest that they dont want teenagers inside the game, but thats what these fourms are for...

I have to agree with Lordfly on the whole ignorance bit. I've encountered people who truly are incapable of making use of the written language in many respects, but I find that most people don't have that excuse.

Several members of my group, including myself, come from a text-gaming background, such as MOOs and MUSHes. We've built up and run several of these ourselves, and we get a surprising number of blind players using screen readers to play and enjoy our games, something they can't really do with any other game format. These players have a genuine excuse for pretty much anything they can punch into a keyboard and we often find ourselves telling other players in private to back off when they start ridiculing them about it.

On the other end, however, we get players who also claim to be educated to the 'nth degree' who can't seem to ever figure out that letters come in two sizes. I've encountered many such people in SL too, and the response I almost always get, in some cases an exact quote, is 'grammar is a waste of time.' I would say that's definitely a choice, and not one I'm obligated to make allowances for. Yeah, that shift key? It's a killer.

</threadjack>

Lordfly,

Unless I've been told wrong, TSO does monitor behavior actively within TSO.

I think you're being naive if you think there won't be sexual predators in a teen game. Not only so, but you've got to think about teens pursuing sexual relationships with adults. Societal norms don't fully apply in an online fantasy game. Perhaps if they did we wouldn't have SO many people into BDSM in SL.

That brings me to another point. You said they should just be integrated in the adult game. If I had kids I wouldn't want them seeing people who wear their BDSM culture on their sleeves. Perhaps I'm foolishly into equality, but I wouldn't want my impressionable teenage son thinking it's ok for a woman to call him, "Master," or, "Sir." There's more I could say on this, but I'll leave it at that.

If they are goign to have teens play they will need to be very obvious about adult content in the non teen game, so that when parents make the accounts for their children they know they have to make it a under 18 account.

When i signed my kids up for the library there were several levels of access availble involving chat and websites available, and the like. SO i presume that would be fairly reasonble.

Under no reason i can see should a teen be in the SL that is for over 18 players. I dont even see how this could be considered. There is a very visible presentation of sex in many mature areas that is simply not suitable for anyone under 18.

Im also very concerened over 18 people will play on the teen grid. I dont see how they are going to stop this one. And has been mentioned a few of these adults will be predators. Even is sexual content isnt allowed .. the predators will still say things and act inapproprately with the teens.

I will not be letting my teenagers play a teen version of Second Life .. if once they are 18 they choose to play a game with sexual content (imagine will be third life by then =p) , that will be their choice.

If they do, they're doing a rotten job of it. When I played at launch, there were already griefing mafias, scam artists masquerading as Maxis employees, and other n'eer-do-wells. Abuse reports did nothing... the same scam artist was in the same area week after week, pretending he was a Maxis employee and taking money.



Perhaps BDSM is so prevalent in SL because it's quite prevalent in RL? You don't know what your neighbors do behind closed doors.

Also, you're doing the "think of the CHILDREN" routine, which I usually ignore. Teens pursuing relationships with adults happens on a very small scale... this is why most teachers aren't shacking up with their junior class charges.

You're not giving the teens enough credit... they have a loathing for anyone not in their peer group, any "invader" will be ridiculed, firebombed, and perhaps pingbombed too (kids have always known how to cause a ruckus on your computer... in 9th grade I was able to troll IRC networks for BackOrifice connections and download files), right before they abuse report the "nasty old man" in the welcoming area.



I've never said that. My stance is a separate teen grid.

LF

It's already in the ToS, I imagine upon launch they'll refine it further.



While I agree, you can't prevent teens from exploring their sexuality online... it's a physical and social impossibility. You can take steps to prevent it, however.



And then the predators are called "dirty old men"; their name is spread to every teen on the grid by word of mouth (OMFG Superpants Smith is a dirty old man lol rofl lmao); the adult is abuse-reported 500 times; he's subsequently banned from SL and from Teen SL. If he was soliciting porn to a minor or worse, then the authorities will be called and, due to our wonderful court system, will be labelled a sexual predator for the rest of his life.

What a risk to play Teen SL.



Might as well not let them on the Internet, then, because the Internet is 100 times worse than anything Teen SL could come up with.

LF

I monitor their activity on the internet, thank you.

I know the parents of everyone they chat with on their messenger accounts, since all are local children.

It possible they sneak stuff by me, sure, but trust has to exist .. AND .. theres a big diffference since i am not endorsing them meeting a bunch of people in a SL like setting.

I do not agree with allowing Teens in SL .. but i can see how they could make it reasonably acceptable in a Teen Grid.

Since i dont agree though, i will not let them play the game .. I did not let them Play The Sims online either. For similar concerns.

There is a difference between teens getting away with something thats against the rules, and adults shrugging and saying .. ahh it will happen anyway, so why bother. Responsible parents need to make clear there are boundries they expect their children not to cross. And hopefully well-raised kids know and basically agree with a lot of them.

Your point about expressing/exploring sexuality online .. well on the teen grid there definitely should be no nudity, sex animations, sexual streaming video, the list goes on and on. since thats totally illegal.

Im not entirely sure what the legality is of say two clothed avs with 16 year old players sitting somewhere and having cybersex is tho.. such a thing isnt really offensive since they are both of similar age .. and in High School were plenty of kids at that age having real sex. stopping this would be something you could not enforce as you have said ..

This all being said .. what will the lower age limit be on this teen grid? 13? i believe it US law that a child under 13 can not have their own email account.

it might be better if it were say ... 15 .. i dont know.

Collette I know you and we hang so you know this is with my heart fully in my comment. BUT how do we know they are the same age? How do we know they aren't 40 and in there trying to fulfill a sickening fantasy with a child.. I watch EVERYTHING my son watches reads looks at and so on... BUT I do Know that there are ppl that can sneak right past an adult. That is my biggest fear... Just because they say they are 16 doesn't mean it's not a 40 yr old that speaks "teenlish" LOL anyway... My point is.. Just because teens want to have everything adults have doesn't mean we have to cater to it LOL. It IS ok for us to have something (second life) that they (teens) dont have. *hugs* love ya girl!

I more meant if they were both actually 16 year old players it wouldnt necessarily be horrible, and no way for the lindins to stop or even catch them as long as they still allow Instant messgaes. I presume they will still allow houses, clubs, etc .. so even with no Instant messaging they will be abke to find private places. I just dont know how they could stop it. But they in no way should encourage it.

You are right Anj, is no way to know some 40 year old man isnt trying to pick up young girls (as young a 13??!!) for cybersex. A big reason Teen SL is a bad idea in my opinion. Becuase im sure it will happen. And i dont think that Lordfly is necesarrily correct in they will give themselves away readily and get labelled "dirty old men" .. like you are saying Anj .. they will claim to be teens also.

I think even worse is some predator will gain confidence .. become some lonely teen girls online boyfriend and then get personal information about her .. arraigne to meet her. Happens now on the internet already. And what i think a lot of us are concerned with is it would happen in some place parents think of as a "Safe" game - after all they control what goes on there, dont they?

see the problem? If they claim its a controlled Teen only area .. and its not really .. parents who wouldnt let their kids chat unsupervised .. might in a "Safe" game.

I think thats the reason for the Toon Town control on Chat as a previous poster mentioned. Since they want to be a safe game for kids they make it so the subjects of discussion are limited to just canned phrases.

Well I think there are some seriously naive adults posting here. I know there are some seriously immature adults playing the game, and I am under no illusion that teens are not present. I also am under no illusion that half the women online are not really men. Come off it people. I am opposed to teens being in the SL adult grid because I do not want the legal hassles that could be associated from unknowing involvement with a teen. (Then again I am opposed to married women beig in the SL adult grid from husband hassles associated with being unknowingly involved with a married woman.)

I'm 38 and if maturity is measured by age then I think noone under 30 should be allowed to play the game, otherwise you simply aren't mature enought to contribute to my having a happy online expereince. Its sound ridiculous because it is ridiculous. Its the same with Teenagers. If they have their own SL grid, fine. I won't choose to go there. But age is never an indication of maturity.

All this rhetoric about "for the kids" should just stop. Face it, if you are a parent, keeping kids offline is just an easier way for you to sleep at night without wondering what they are doing. Its selfish and immature, and a way to avoid your responsibilites as a parent to participate in your kids lives. You can run here and play bondage slut, and never have to worry about the implications your behavior might have on the kids because they don't know. Why do you insist on teen age sexual repsonsibility, when you are not doing it yourselves?

The hypocrisy sandwich is damned hard to digest. How many of us were angelic teens who did not smoke, drink, party, and pursue the having of sex with a vengance? How may of us are truly arfraid our kids are out there making the same mistakes we did as teens. Guess what. You can't stop them. The best you can do is hope that what you have done in raising them gives them enough moral fiber to make intelligent and responsible decisions. Most states give drivers licenses to teenagers. I'd like to think that if you are thought responsible enough to drive a vehicle, you are able to make intelligent choices in playing games.

Yes there are predators out there. The best way to protect our kids is to have discussions with them about what the implications of that are. You don't do that by pulling the plug on internet chat rooms. Also since when is it ok for tennes to be promiscuous among each other? Is it ok if my 16 year old daughter is known as the town ho among her peers, as long as she never looks at a 19 year old? I think not. Basically, as a parent you have to worry, its your job to. But more importantly its your job to give your kids the tools they need to survive in a adult world. Which means that by 16 they better have a good grip on personal responsibility. If you trust your kids to drive down my streets in your car, you better be able to trust thier judgment in a chatroom.

That being said, they will lie their way into the adult stuff. Little johnny will likely unknowingly have sex with a 35 year old married mother of two. They probably drink or smoke behind your back too, and they never ever tell you what they do with the webcam. Lose the Illusions that your kids are perfect. I know I convince my parents of that. At least I knew when i was doing something I shouldn't have been.

I know I know this will shock parents, but hey I was a teen for seven years. I know what they can do. I know what they do.

Thus I think they should be entrusted with thier own grid. There is a risk associated with everything anyone does. Its no different with teens. Yes there is a possibility a predator will sneak in. There is a possibility they will encounter a predator at the movies. You never know unless you lock your kids in a convent..oh wait they might encounter a predator there.. keep them safe.. shoot them now. Yes that is sarcasm. The best way to combat this is to make your kids aware of the problem, its a fight that begins and ends at home. LL is not here to be a parent for you, they are offering a powerful, fun and constructive learning tool for kids. They are doing everything they can to keep the participants safe. Ulitmately if you don't want your kids to be exposed to that, you can prevent them by simply watching over thier shoulder as they use the net, and not giveng the permission to partake in online games. YOu have the power to say NO SL for you young man. that does not mean that teens should not have thier own SL grid. Some parents, may after all, feel differently.

Now before everyone goes a accuses me of being a pedo (oh wait this is SL forums, you have already started typing that post out...silly me). I am opposed to having teens in the main grid. Because it is safer for me. I have enough trouble worrying if the woman I am talking to is a guy, I don't want to to worry about whther they are an underage guy. I cetainly don't ever want to deal with angry parents or accusations of abuse born of a bad break up. I am cautious as it is, but I am selfish. Its not about maturity, intelligence or sophistication, its about the fact that I could go to jail if the teens parents show the same maturity understanding ans sophistication I see displayed here in the forums.

So teens in adult SL no. Teens in Teen SL, yes.

well that post is a bit full of venom ..

ill just say this .. you are entilted to your opinion.

I am not bound to share it.

The is a huge difference between Adult Behavior and Child Behavior

.. Adults are responsible for their own actions

at least where i live Children have only limited responsibilty for what they say and do and their parents are ultimately wholey responsible for them

Well that's it you guys LF said it so it is true! Watch out for the lightening bolts the almighty has just spoken! Geeze Go play the game already. We're all so sorry that our opinion seems to be "stupid or invalid" to you because it doesn't agree with yours. We will all take heart to just sit back and nod in agreeance with you so as not to be insulted while posting our own. Iam an INCREDIBLE parent. I had horrible parents to teach me how to NOT parent, and I have to say.. Listening to you ramble on and on is just nausiating. You mention over and over and over again the bondage rooms and the sluts.. My question is... How do you know so much.. You running a teen prostitution ring or something? This is going to be my last post just to keep from having to listen to you droan on and on and on. THank you so much though for confirming that it's true that sexist jerks are the ones providing the commentary on life. Sad sad day. For the rest of you thank you for bein so NON confontational on here and letting me do exactly what this was meant for (finding if anyone felt the way I do). LF I hope you selfishly enjoy every last ounce of your game play, and Im speaking only for myself when I say thanks for letting us see you for who you are, so that we know exactly who not to speak in front of. uhuh all us dum foks says thanx uhuh for lettin us no how dum wes R Take care you guys *hugs*

That's cool. I posted a reasonable response to the discussion, and now I run a teen prostitution ring. I'm moving up in the world, apparently.

Sheesh.

edit: are you confusing my post with Jake's? I don't really think my posts were THAT venomous.

LF

end of story no, there will be a lot of kids wanting to get on and then they will see that there is also an adult only sl and then wapow were surrounded by kids peepen in ur windows and buggen ur homws lol. and imagin the sandboxes wut theyl be like......... god so many unfinished and left behind stuff.... lindens pleasssss dont let kids on sl..... i beg of you.

and i do realize that this also has to do with maturity, well its a fact, kids are not the more mature age.

I dont really want to speak for Anj .. but I do know it was Jake Reitveld's post that resulted in her writing the last one. Since I pointed it out to her in the game last night.

It was his post i referred to as full of venom. It comes accross very judgemental and confrontational .. it reads as if he dares anyone to disagree.

I do not think Lordfly, although we dont agree on the issue, that your posts were like that.

Upon further consdieration of Jake Reitveld's post. Id like to point out that i dont feel that players should in such a sweeping manner judge other players. His post reads to me as if he despises a large portion of the game's community and the forum's posters.

Considering his post was directly after mine and the subject matter in part a rebuttal of my post - it appears i am one of the people he considers immature. Considering i am a married woman and on the adult grid i must defintely be immature according his guidelines.

It is presumtive and disrespectful, without any indication of neglect or abuse, to tell somehow how to raise their children. It is entirely within my legal rights and i believe ethical ones also, to supervise and control what things my children are exposed to to the extent that i can. I beleive it is also my responsibilty as a parent.

He uses the term immature .. but i dont think he uses it in correctly. A married woman engaging in online extramarital activity is not being immature. If she hides it from her husband she is being unfaithful to some extent, i wont presume to know to what extent. A married woman who hides the fact that shes married from her partners is dishonest also to some extent. But being unfaithful and dishonest are seperate things from being immature.

The same can be said for his use of irresponsible and hypcrytical.

His directly confrontational approach seems to attempt to push his morality on others .. immature the word of choice .. if we want to be mature we have to behave in the way he suggests is right.

In all cases most of the points he makes are so clouded by the accusatory comments and antipathy that they are hard to make out.

in response to some of the ones i can see -

Yes, I know teens have sex.

No i dont think a parent should encourage it.
As a parent I let them know they are too young to be enagaging in sex. No i am not so naive to think that by itself means they wont do it. But its has to be clear that i am not condoning it.

I do monitor what they do on the internet. This is not immature. I dont think many parents think it is. Whether here or elsewhere. For him to dierectly state that is frankly insulting.

I will not further respond to direct attacks on my maturity and responsibilty, and to those on other parents and players in the game.

On the issue of the actual topic of this post. There is even less of a reason for me to beleive Teens in Second Life is a good idea now. Since they would potentially have to contend with some argumentitive bullying such as this on some topic.