Katie Holmes, Tom Cruise, and the Cult of Scientology

But respect the right of others to practice the cult of their choice.

Hiro, you're the one making a circular argument. You're the one who came here to this forum which I frequent and posted a link to a site which is aimed at the destruction of my religion. Call it a cult if you want. From my perspective, what you have done is invite hatred of my religion.

Now, I probably should have been a good little girl and let this slide, but I get extremely frustrated every time someone has to drag out old fuck-ups from half a continent away and a decade ago and use it to suggest that everything we have done in the world is nothing but shit and that we should all be "de-brainwashed". Be happy for Tom and Katie, or mock them. I don't care. But respect the right of others to practice the cult of their choice.

I don't think you're going to "win" this one, Ananda. (Nor do I think it was your purpose to try.) But I think that your statement, above, has forced a draw. My respects to you and your beliefs.

No, I believe these are the claims of critics of the Church, purported to have been taken out of stolen OT Levels materials. As I have not seen the actual materials, I can't state what they really contain. The Church makes no such claims itself in any published materials, nor does it expect followers to believe anything unexamined. As for the story of Xenu, it seems rather farfetched to me too. But having run across plenty of outlandish things and also horribly mundane and silly things in my mind and in those of people I've audited, I don't automatically discount it because it sounds so strange.

I'm afraid the rules of rational inquiry go both ways, Chip. If you observe some phenomena, you've observed it, and if your aim is to discover what is really going on, you can't just deny that you've observed it. I've directly seen that a great many people have benefited from what they have learned in Scientology. I've heard secondhand accounts of terrible times and hardship experienced by those who joined the Sea Org and upper management. I've heard secondhand accounts of people who described recieving "auditing" that was so grossly misapplied that I'm not surprised they were pissed.

I happen to lament the costs of training and auditing, but I also know the amount of effort that goes into delivering those services, and most local organizations are as busy as a swarming beehive getting them delivered and just barely getting enough funds to keep the doors open.

And to Talen: Anyone who'd studied auditing would know that OF COURSE an E-meter does nothing to the preclear. It is NOT a biofeedback device. Its whole purpose is to detect the current mental state of the preclear and the movement of thoughts as they change. Some auditing techniques make use of this device, others don't. It really is nothing more than a very sensitive meter for measuring electrical resistance.

And to Hiro: What got me into this thread was the perceived threat you were promoting hatred against Scientologists. In your latest reply you seem to be suggesting that people like me should be "de-brainwashed". Once again this is a threat that I take very seriously. When I first started taking a class in my local church years ago, I happened to mention that to a school counselor. She proceeded to get my parents in touch with the old Cult Awareness Network. CAN then filled my parents' heads with many of the same old stories these critic sites have posted today. As you might imagine, I had a rather big scene on my hands. But when CAN suggested referring my case to a "deprogrammer", that made it clear to both me and my parents where the biggest threat was coming from.

I'd laugh at the irony that the very same group that was telling tales about coercion and hardship would then turn around and suggest that I be kidnapped, imprisoned, drugged, subjected to physical and mental abuse, all to "deprogram" this idea I had that I'd found something I could do some good in the world with. I'd laugh if I hadn't been that close to having it happen to me.

So be careful what you wish on people.

Gee, isn't playing the victim fun? Anyone can do it.

My boyfriend moved to Hollywood in 2000 or thereabouts and went to Scientology classes because, he reasoned, that was where he could meet the powerful folks.

We now live about 5 minutes away from the Hollywood apex of Scientology on Franklin Avenue. It's built like a castle. Apparently some princess lived there before she sold it, or something along those lines.

The thing that drove him away, he said, was the overall feel. These people are creepy. Sure, they have pretty girls who admit you and call you all the time to ask about you and ask when you're going to go to the next Scientology class. They have people who call you all the time. They are very interested in telling you what they believe, and they are extremely aggressive.

My boyfriend had to ask them several times to stop calling him. Short of threatening them.

My father, who is a retired investigative journalist, knew another journalist who wrote an expose on Scientology.

This is a money-grubbing cult, no more. This is not the modern form of Judaism.

Don't let Ananda straw-man this, Seth. This is about Tom and Katie proclaiming lies about their cult in order to gain members. This is not about their personal choices; I have not said anything about Tom, or John Travolta, or any other scientologist until Tom and Katie have been going around proclaiming these lunacy remarks. I also do not mention other notable celebrity scientologists who have not gone around evangelising with lies.

Sounds like an experience a friend had with some christian youth group.

All religions are cults and all religions are money grubbing.. some are simply more subtle / have a longer sales cycle. It's pretty much necessity - you need money to pay for all those bibles / churches / etc.

If you are looking for something spiritual, consider unitarianism. It's a pretty good philosophy which encourages everyone to have a mind of their own.

However, even unitarians will tell you that a 5-10% tithe is necessary if you wish to be a voting member.

That's the difference between a cult and a religion.

Yeah, churches need money to pay for maintainance and bibles and service programs. But when you start charging upwards of $500,000 (I've heard $300,000 on Wikipedia, one article I read stated that $19,500 was the reported price in 1997) to learn about a galactic tyrant named Xenu who "stacked hundreds of billions of his frozen victims around Earth's volcanoes 75 million years ago before blowing them up with hydrogen bombs and brainwashing them with a 'three-D, super colossal motion picture'" for 36 days," it really starts to seem a bit out-there, whereas I can walk into a church, sit down with my pastor and hear stories of Jesus and his Disciples without giving up a single penny. That's the difference between a cult and a religion.

Yeah, churches need money to pay for maintainance and bibles and service programs. But when you start charging upwards of $500,000 (I've heard $300,000 on Wikipedia, one article I read stated that $19,500 was the reported price in 1997) to learn about a galactic tyrant named Xenu who "stacked hundreds of billions of his frozen victims around Earth's volcanoes 75 million years ago before blowing them up with hydrogen bombs and brainwashing them with a 'three-D, super colossal motion picture'" for 36 days," it really starts to seem a bit out-there, whereas I can walk into a church, sit down with my pastor and hear stories of Jesus and his Disciples without giving up a single penny. That's the difference between a cult and a religion.

Yeah, well, christianity is more established and can afford a longer, more complex, and more subtle sales cycle.

But, come on. Let's look at some of the other religions and what they do:

- Terrorism
- Threatening to blow up abortion clinics and kill people
- Advocating assinating presidents of developing countries

etc etc.

That being said, I'm a fairly spiritual person and do believe in a unifying force in the universe.

So, using the above definitions, I don't have anything against the religion of Scientology.

A lot of people are debating the meanings of the word 'cult' and 'religion'. Since the meanings of words are based on the perceptions of the speaker, here's what I usually think they mean....no, these aren't from Webster, just MHO.

A religion is a set of beliefs about spirituality, and usually helps one choose how one should live their life. It's a set of ideals.

A cult is the organization centered around an ideal. There are many ideals, religion being simply one type of ideal. The reason cults are considered negative is their overwhelming tendency to ignore the ideal in favor of the organization.

This is why I consider myself a Christian, yet dislike almost all organized Christian movements. The mentality of the group inevitably takes precedence over the ideals they profess to beleive. Which is why Jesus preaches tolerance, yet many Christian churchs are intolerant of homosexuals. It's why Islam the religion is a religion of peace, yet many Islamic organizations practice terrorism. And it's why Dianetics has a lot of good ideas in helping a person deal with life...yet the Church of Scientology has financial practices that would make the Pharisees of the Gospels blush.

So, using the above definitions, I don't have anything against the religion of Scientology. I do question the *cult* of Scientology...I think the organization has overtaken the ideals. Spirituality, in any form you practice, should be mainly personal and individual. Groups inevitably promote self-serving, if you ask me.

Even though L Ron Hubbard, a science fiction writer, stated, before creating Scientology, that if he were to want to make lots of money, he'd start a religion?

Dianetics is not a religion. Dianetics is a "go get yourself cleaned up and off drugs" book. It's nothing like 12-step, which tightly integrates religion into its teachings. Dianetics relationship to Scientology, at best, is promotion and philosophy on drugs.

Cults brainwash their members. Scientology courses will lock people in rooms and force them to repeat mind-numbing dribble over and over until it becomes second-nature. They literally teach members totally new definitions for words that alters their language, and consequently the way they think. That sure sounds like brainwashing, to me.

I would take exception only with the last sentence. Just as groups can wind up being self-serving, they can also do much greater things for others than individuals alone could do, and inspire greater individual growth. In my case, they have inspired individual growth.

Agreed, I will admit to a bit of generalizing there. I have learned a great deal from my private studies and conversations with spiritually like-minded friends. However, I have noticed that the benefits decrease and the problems increase with organized religion the bigger the group gets.