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(ot) Dont say God it may offend someone

Rivn Epoch
Senior Member
Join date: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 207
03-01-2003 06:20
this is crazy ...
what is this world/country coming to when the word God becomes offencive and infringes on the rights of a few individuals when the overwhelming population believes in God...Maybe we all dont go to Church , follow the words of the Bible ,worship on any regular basis or even feel as though we are heaven bound in the end but MOST of us believe in God ...I for 1 feel like this decisiion is Infringfull on the Majorities Rights ....see what you think......

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20030301/D7PGAUG00.html

feel free to express your thoughts on this here
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Kiddish Cartier
Registered User
Join date: 24 Feb 2003
Posts: 7
03-01-2003 06:29
I don't think "most" of us believe in the christian g(G)od of which the pledge refers to, probably (and i'm totally guessing) only 40% of the american population is born christian (as in they celebrate holidays etc.) and even less are devote christians.

Even so I don't approve of the decision. I'm not american, and I always felt silly traditions like a "pledge of allegiance" were ridiculous when I lived there, but the entire pledge should not be taken away from schools just because of one little phrase, "under god." It seems like such a chockered ritual to me. Do children that young even understand the concepts of what the pledge is saying?

At any rate, I feel bad for that man's poor children. For the rest of their educational lives they'll be known as "The kids who's dad took away the pledge."
Ama Omega
Lost Wanderer
Join date: 11 Dec 2002
Posts: 1,770
03-01-2003 09:49
A little peice of trivia: The original pledge of allegience did not have the words "under God" in it. They were added later.

Whether the majority believes in god or not is not really the point. The government of the united states is based heavily on the theory of seperation of church and state. This seperation is important to prevent religious persecution.

I don't really think the pledge should be banned completely, but I'm not against a revised pledge - back to the original form - with out the phrase 'under god' in it.
Misnomer Jones
3 is the magic number
Join date: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1,800
03-01-2003 11:17
Boy doesnt THIS thread have the potential to get ppl all upset!

America is made up of millions of people from countless countries. I don't think it is fair to assume "most" believe in "God".

And here's a twist for you... what about freedom FROM religion?

I knew the bit of trivia that Ama pointed out and I really come to this discussion with a similar viewpoint. I don't think it's about, or should be about who believes what. Its about a basic building block of this country, seperation of church & state.

Here's a question for you. Do you believe there really is such a seperation?

My personal opinion is there is not.

Back to the pledge... I think the pledge has its importance in our culture. However I too would be interested in a revision to the original form, to be more inclusive of the diversity of America.
Asher LeFay
Registered User
Join date: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 77
03-01-2003 12:22
Ok, so people know that "under God" was ADDED to the pledge, but do you know WHY? I actually didnt know this till i asked around (it was added in the 1950s). We (the United States) considered oursleves not only a stalwart defender of Democracy, but also of religion against the encroaching threat of "Godless Communism".

"Obviously" (wink, wink), Communists are a bunch of God shunning scum, THEREFORE, we are better, we believe in God. So our oh so bright politicians therefore decided that in order to REALLY distincualize ourselves as being better than the Red Russians, we not only had to affirm our belief to God, but we had to make it intresic in our support of our country. Remember, if you didn't say the pledge, you might find your self infront of the dreaded HUAC (House, Unamerican Activities Committee, chaired by the devil himself, McCarthy, pardon the bad religion *spawned* pun).

I personally believe in God, but that's a personal belief that doesnt need to be forced down other people's throat and not tied to one organized religion, but based on many. Anyway, I couldn't care whether or not somebody else believes in God, because there have been times in my life when I doubted it myself, and I still can't logically reconcile my belief (but that's a whole 'nother can of worms, lol)

Just one last thing, didn't God say in the torah (I am still officially Jewish, a defenitly liberal one, in politics and in religion, not to mention the old testamet was the Torah almost verbatim) that there were no boundries in His eyes, that the walls would tumble and so on and so forth? (I'll have to look that one up, and post it if anyone is even half as interested in knowing the answer as I).

And of course, the epic question (well, other than, "What is the meaning of life?" and "Does God exist?";), Do I have to believe in God to be faithful to a country that is under said Diety? And what's wrong with just going back to the original. "Under God" is an affirmative, gramitcally correct in its use, which gives pause to the way it's said. It wouldnt screw up the pledge to remove it would it?
Rivn Epoch
Senior Member
Join date: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 207
03-01-2003 17:35
Ya know I have done a lil research on this and heres is what I have come up with....

If the word GOD is known now to be unconstitutional then the entire constitution is invalid itself .... heres why , the word God is within the constitution its self several times over

This is the search report for the search you ran on Mar 1 20:21:06 2003.
It is a temporary file, and will expire about an hour after the search.

-------------------------------------------

Searching constitution...

Your query was:

(GOD)

The database contains 769,912 words in 106 documents.
There are no fields in this database.

god occurs 15 times in 4 documents.

The search found 4 documents. It took less than a second.

---------------------------------------------

The search was performed by a WAIS Inc server: WAIS Server 2.1.6.
For more information on this product contact the database administrator.


Now with this in mind take out your wallets anyone from the US, take out a simple little 1 dollar bill turn to the back of it and read .... what does it say above the Big $1 symbol?
heres a hint .... ( In God We Trust )

The same thing goes with EVERY coin (U.S.) in your pocket on it somewhere you will find the words "In God We Trust"
now if the constitution is invalid and the pledge is invalid and the money is invalid what is left?????


and as to the ones claiming that 40% or less of this Nation is of the Christian faith I would love to see some documentation on this ... I have lived all over this country From Arizona to Pennsylvania to Oregon and Have yet to see Christians outnumbered at a 60% ratio in any place in which I have lived


so curiouse as to how you came up with these figures
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Ama Omega
Lost Wanderer
Join date: 11 Dec 2002
Posts: 1,770
03-01-2003 18:01
Whether the majority believes in god or not is irrelevant to the argument.

I don't believe our money should have in god we trust imprinted on it, but I see no method of changing that. The constitution is a historical document, written at a time when god's will was required in all documents of legal standing.

No one should feel they are inferrior, that the government doesn't represent them, or that their beliefes are wrong just because they differ from the majority or the group in power. That is an ideal. It is not what is in practice. However just because it isn't in practice doesn't mean that every small step in that direction is unnecesary.

Forcing kids in public schools (sanctioned and controled by the government) to either say something they don't believe, or sit out and become "special" is not a good thing, and is religious persecution.

All that aside the decision is not really final. The case -will- go to the supreme court which is extremely conservative. It will probably be overturned there.
Rivn Epoch
Senior Member
Join date: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 207
03-01-2003 18:10
The pledge is not forced to be said (at least not in my childrens school) but however they do stand for the recital, noone makes them say it , it is vollentary to whether you say it or not ... you are however required to stand and be quiet at that time if not saying the pledge, and that is out of respect for the country in which you are living in has nothing to do with God or anything else at that point, just simply respect of the nation and the flag .....

What they did in san fran. to me is basically taken Rights away from people who want to say it by disallowing it... is that not even more unjust considering in this nation the Majority do believe in the christian God ....
(to save an arguement on the actual percentages will say)
and even if it isnt a majority a large percentage believe .

how is this Just?
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Rivn Epoch
Senior Member
Join date: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 207
03-01-2003 18:20
note what you said Ama and not to start an arguement but to show a point....


From: someone
I don't believe our money should have in god we trust imprinted on it, but I see no method of changing that. The constitution is a historical document, written at a time when god's will was required in all documents of legal standing.


now with this quote from you in mind ....

Our Constitution is the document that this nation and its principals where founded upon ...

So If they founded it upon the belief in God and what he stood for then how is it possible in any sence that saying

"One Nation Under God" is unconstitutional?

thats a principal of the founding fathers and belief of the founders in which we base all of our laws and protections of the people with...

It cant be both ways it isnt possible, you cant say 2 +2 = 4
base your entire math system on that and then later say well its actualy 5 but were gonna leave everything else stay the same except that base figure..it dont work that way
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Ama Omega
Lost Wanderer
Join date: 11 Dec 2002
Posts: 1,770
03-01-2003 19:52
From: someone
Forcing kids in public schools (sanctioned and controled by the government) to either say something they don't believe, or sit out and become "special" is not a good thing, and is religious persecution


This is the basis for what I believe. When the teacher says "Ok eveyone stand up and say the pledge." She is saying it the position of an official of the government. Any student who does not stand or does not say it is noticed by other students. This sets them apart, as not part of the norm, as something else. They become a "them" and not a "us". This is the religious persectution. Because we have singled out, at a very impressionable age, all the people who do not believe a certain way. This is where the injustice is. Majority, minority or even a single case doesn't matter. The government should not be part in any singling out of people based on what they believe.

No I have not ignored your argument, I just believe that sums it up. People are free to stand up and say a pledge whenever they want, with or without "under god". No one is infringing on that right any more than on any other freedom of speech issue. However the government absolutly should not be part in the singling out and seperation of anyone based on what they believe.

Also being in the Majority does not give you any rights to abuse the rights of the minority. But that is another can of worms. :)
Kiari LeFay
Lemon Flavored Fish Treat
Join date: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 223
Under Allah?
03-01-2003 23:05
Would you have a problem if your children were made to repeat at school every day, 'Under Allah' instead? ... the people who argue that Under God should be allowed to stay would throw a hissy fit if the name another culture uses to refer to a diety were used in place.

The word God itself is not as much of a catchall phrase for a diety as you would say, if it was, then other words for different religion's prime dieties would be able to be interchanged without anyone caring. The word God is different than Allah and different than Vishnu or Krishna or the hundreds of other 'prime' dieties. They all carry different meanings and different nuances.


Although I think it would be fun if we all pledged allegiance to One Nation, under Hecate :)
Zoli Zeeman
Necronomiclown-in-Trainin
Join date: 7 Nov 2002
Posts: 135
03-02-2003 00:26
-Somepeople are bad and they don't give a damn
bout what they do or who they hurt
And they go thrugh their lives
and they don't apolligise, or get what they deserve.
They don't bother me at all, cause I know quite well..
That when their lives are over, and they've done what they've done
They're the people that are going to Hell-
-The Vandals-
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Rivn Epoch
Senior Member
Join date: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 207
03-02-2003 06:57
From: someone
Would you have a problem if your children were made to repeat at school every day, 'Under Allah' instead? ...


with this yes I personally would have a problem considering this nation wasnt founded under allah , it was however founded as a God fearing Nation and God is mentioned several times within our constitution not allah...what is being forgotten here is that when this Nation was founded there was not 250million+ Americans comeing from so many different religiouse lifstiles there was only a handfull of religiose groups in this nation almost all of them was of the Christian decent...we where not as deverse as a Nation ..

The people that came to this Country came here knowing our basic principals and beliefs they had a chance to look at those beliefs up close and personal before becoming a Citizen ...
they was not forced to stay here they could have left and settled elsewhere, they chose to stay........

When an American goes to other countries we have to obide by the system they have in place and the laws of that Country as well as many traditions and cultural things too,why is it so Dificult for when someone chooses to come here and put down roots that they simply go with what we American people have in place and do as we are forced to do in other Countries...there are STILL Places on this Earth that women can not Drive by Law , they must cover thier face in public ... when American women go there they Can NOT drive either and they are told they should keep thier faces covered as well! Sadia Arabia is a prime example

the biggist bunch of bullshit I have yet to see is why Americans must conform when visiting another country or we might insult our host country but when those people come here we must also conform because we might insult our guests !

remember that old saying ?
When in Rome ???
well its time to make it be when in America...
From: someone
Would you have a problem if your children were made to repeat at school every day, 'Under Allah' instead? ..
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Jaxiam Slate
Registered User
Join date: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 141
Re: Under Allah?
03-02-2003 08:47
From: someone
I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God. In acknowledgement whereof I have hereunto affixed my signature.


The Citizenship Oath

Note that even in this pledge, it is done under the auspice of Gods gaze. This is *regardless of what nation you come from*.

My views. God is a word to indicate a diety. Catholism has taken that word to be "The God" - but the word god is used in most faiths as an indication of a beings devine status.

Now.. If I say "One nation under god" and someone else says the same - you can bet dollars to donuts that we are imagning two seperate entities. Because regardless of your religion, your relationship with your diety is unique to you - never exactly the same. And as that relationship is unique - so to is exactly who or what that diety is..

We are a nation of people who believe in many different things, from many different cultures. So in saying "One nation under god" - each person is seeing that in their own way, applying it to their own ideals. My saying "One nation under god" does not make me start thinking like a mormon just because someone of that faith also used that statement.

As a side note.. Opening a door for a lady is the responsibility of a Gentleman - to both make sure it is safe, and to display courtesy and respect. Yet if done, some women can find it highly offensive - and if not done, others will find it equally offensive....

In making broad statements about our Freedoms against perceived repressions, often times we attack in inane ways. Does my showing respect to a lady take away her rights as a woman and an individual? I hope not, else we better stop saluting in the military - it's the same thing (if not gender based). Does reciting the Pledge take away from our Freedom as indivuals? I hope not, else we must strike all currency, documents, and no long ever hear the sweet strands of the National Anthem.

For historical note - what is sung is *not* the entire national anthem, but rather an abbreviate version for the sake of brevity.

From: someone
O thus be it ever when free-men shall stand
Between their lov'd home and the war's desolation;
Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n-rescued land
Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserv'd us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: “In God is our trust!”
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!



conclusion - I dont want to see the Pledge altered or removed. It's as much a part of our culture as freetos and baseball. However I dont believe that anyone should be "forced" to recite it. But it's said that the rights of many are not more important than the rights of the few.... yet in the end - where are you happy? how many or how few have to be trampled in democratic mud before it's acceptable? uphold the few, abuse the many - tell me again how this makes our country stronger?
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Jaxiam Slate
Registered User
Join date: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 141
03-02-2003 08:53
oh and note - thats not the entire National Anthem either. If anyone wants the entire works posted let me know and I will do so.
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Rivn Epoch
Senior Member
Join date: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 207
03-02-2003 09:13
WTG Jax !
there is a American I feel proud of calling a fellow countrymen!!

and yes

I swear to tell the truth the whole truth and Nothing BUT the truth so help me GOD (while my hand lays upon the Bible in any court in this Nation)
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Rivn Epoch
Senior Member
Join date: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 207
03-02-2003 13:41
maybe we should ban all forms of advertisements too , hell someone working for the competition may be offended that they have more air time or more billboards or more .....................

once you start invoking government controls on what can and cant be done because someones feeling may be hurt then your loosing the freedoms that everyone wants to keep....

Next thing you know its going to be illigal to put up Christmas lights and decorations because the guy at the end of the block is Jewish or Islamic or Johova witness or athiest or a devil worshiper or whatever other faith or Non faith and he or she may be offended that you have a dif belief and celebrate in a different manner than they do ...

Is this not the land of the Free ?
Shouldnt we be able to choose to say the pledge when desired ?
Who is the San Fran District Court think they are to say you can NOT say it now especially when anyone testifing within that Court must swear on the Bible to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God prior to testifing?

Hasnt there been some kind of presedent already set by the people saying it for all these years without incedent ?
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Ama Omega
Lost Wanderer
Join date: 11 Dec 2002
Posts: 1,770
03-02-2003 14:23
No one is preventing people from doing anything. You draw wrong conclusions rivn. What is being said is that the Government can not sanction religious descrimination. You can still say the pledge of allegience. You can still stand on your roof and shout "IN GOD WE TRUST" for all your worth. Of course community annoying people laws may come into effect, but thats just cuz you are yelling on the top of your roof.

All that is being said is that a teacher in a public school -is- acting in an official manner in relation to the government. And that the act of calling for everyone to stand and pledge allegience is a call as an official of the government. And that as long as said pledge includes "under god" then it sets up a descriminatory situation where people who don't believe that, who won't say the words or won't stand, are singled out.

That is what is on trial. That is where the injustice is. No one is questioning your right to practice your religion, or your right to say what you want. What is being questioned is the Governments right to single people out based on their beliefes. And that is not and should not be allowed.

That descriminatory situation is -not- created by the words being in the constitution, on currency or on any other document. I suppose a case could be made about the "I swear to tell the whole truth...." being similar.... but it doesn't take a group of people and seperate them based on what they believe.


=============
On a side note, I do agree that there are too many cases of people sueing or restrictions enacted because someone's feelings are hurt. However I still very strongly believe that the government should not take part in any act that seperates people based on what they believe.
Rivn Epoch
Senior Member
Join date: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 207
03-02-2003 15:46
I hear what you are saying Ama but I dont look at a school teacher as a government officials I look at them as a school teacher I didnt elect them or appoint them the people i helped elect didnt appoint them either...they where hired to teach our children (some are not so good at that I must admit)
they have no vote in congress or any Veto power in the white house... they are teachers nothing more or less...
Alot of people look at the schools as an extention of government mearly because its substidised by the government, hell so is alot of things in the country , farms are substidised too but certainly the farmer isnt a government official....

After all you and I are extentions of the government too no matter what Job we do in life everyone is an extention of there government to some degree ..If you vote, pay taxes , collect unemployment, collect welfare anything at all just about has some form of government ties even fishing licences or hunting licences if ya have one your tied to the government somehow some way...
the only way your not a part of the government in some form is to be like grizley Adams and live in the mountains 100 miles from everyone and have no communication with the outside world , no utilities no store bought food or supplies of any kind , eat berries and shoot deer with home made bow and arrows and NOT own the land that you live on... you must be a squatter on the land hell is there anyone left like that in this day and age?

basically money has to be valueless to you to not be in some connection with the government, actually you probably cant even be a statistic in a cencus to make it 100% non-governmentally tied...so sunday schools teachers wont be able to teach because it would infringe upon the seperation of church and state after all they have government ties right?
roflmao


this is a little extreme but hopefully it makes us all think just a little bit

have a nice day all
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Ama Omega
Lost Wanderer
Join date: 11 Dec 2002
Posts: 1,770
03-02-2003 17:15
Finally an argument about the situation. And thats where the argument lies. Because the teacher is in a public school funded 100% by the government they are seen as more of an official than not. So if a teacher when teaching is not part of the government then cool, they should be able to lead the pledge. If they are seen as an extension of the government - you did elect the body that hired them - then they should not be allowed to lead it and cause that situation.

Because people are required to go to school, because not everyone can afford private school, and because you do elect the people that hire the people that hire the teachers (or some level of that) then I think that the teacher should not be allowed to facilitate this descriminating activity.
Shebang Sunshine
Royal PITA
Join date: 3 Dec 2002
Posts: 765
03-02-2003 18:55
From: someone
Because people are required to go to school


Totally unrelated to saying/not saying the Pledge, I intend to homeschool The Boy (assuming I can talk Daddy into it within the next 3.5 years).

We'll join a local homeschool group assuming I can find one whose ideas are ... to some degree in line with my own.

We'll go to the park for "recess" while he's young. When he gets older he can take karate and/or join the PS athletic department and/or whatever other physical activity he wishes to partake in.

We'll go on field trips (with and/or without other homeschoolers) -- to museums, wildlife parks, historical points of interest, etc. We'll study history and art and science. I'll encourage (not force) him to join Scouts. I'll teach him English and Italian and Spanish and French (no, I don't know Italian or Spanish myself yet -- we'll learn together!). We've already begun American Sign Language (started when he was ~3 months old) together. Daddy will teach him how to play guitar. For math we'll use every resource I can get my hands on, since Math Is Not My Friend. We'll have a telescope. We'll do craft projects (he started coloring today, as a matter of fact!).

And yes, he will take those yearly tests that all students in the PS system take, so I'll know that we're (at a bare minimum) "on track" with his peers. I'll have lesson plans.

And if it doesn't work for him... then we'll do something else.

That's my plan.. part of it, anyway.

The PS system just scares the heebies out of me.
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Ama Omega
Lost Wanderer
Join date: 11 Dec 2002
Posts: 1,770
03-02-2003 19:50
Not totally unrelated.

Not everyone can afford home schooling - time wise. Families where both parents work, but can't afford private school are common. They are still required to send their kids to school.

As for home schooling .... totaly seperate debate. :)
Shebang Sunshine
Royal PITA
Join date: 3 Dec 2002
Posts: 765
03-02-2003 20:13
From: someone
Originally posted by Ama Omega
Not totally unrelated.

Not everyone can afford home schooling - time wise. Families where both parents work, but can't afford private school are common. They are still required to send their kids to school.

As for home schooling .... totaly seperate debate. :)


I hear ya. And I'm not saying Everybody Should Home School. I wish that everyone who *wants* to home school were able to do so. If for some reason I can't continue to stay home with him, then I'll have to look at the other options, but I'm working hard to prevent that from happening, because it's something that's important to me.

Actually tho, parents aren't required to send their kids to school -- they are required to see that their children are Educated, whether they do this by availing themselves of the PS system, by paying for a private school, or by home schooling either with or without a set curriculum ("unschooling" is somewhat popular with some).

And you're right -- home schooling IS a totally seperate debate. It's one of my favorite subjects these days, and while I don't know anywhere near Everything about it, I do love to discuss it. If ya wanna start a new OT thread about it, I'll follow ya there. If you don't do that, then I'll shut up about it unless/until someone else chimes in on the subject :)

To bring THIS post back on topic, The Boy and I -will- say the Pledge -with- God's name in it.

:)
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Dave Zeeman
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Join date: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 1,025
feh
03-02-2003 23:07
The way I see it, I found it annoying having to stand up out of my seat (I was taking a nap, it was the morning, homeroom was nap-time for me) just to say the pledge. I think we're just saving future generations from this annoyance, so they can have longer nap-times :D

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Rivn Epoch
Senior Member
Join date: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 207
03-03-2003 05:14
that was so Pathetic it doesnt even dignify this responce dave....

Shebang ....Homeschooling is a wonderful gift to give your child , there are so many plusses to it that it would take a small book to define them all, there are however a few things that are of concern with homeschooling and some dont apply in all potential homeschooling enviroments ...

some people simply are not able to teach there own child for variouse different reasons , being to close to the child to be able to critisize lack of effort without it lingering into the homelife is one some so called experts have...another is alot of schools dont recognize homeschooling as equivilances to Public or private schools so if there came a day for whatever reason they may not be so willing to place the child in the grade that they should be in (this is in some states yours may or may not be one of them)

Another issue is the lack of interaction with children of the same age groups in a setting such as schools where there are a wider variety of ethnic backgrounds and upbringing ... this is supposed to make them more world ready so to speak ....

Im not saying I agree with all of these things but they are concerns of the public in general...

I think if someone has the time and the ability to do this for thier child and can at the same time expose them to new and different circumstances and cultures then its fantastic...

if all this can be done then....
the biggest concern I have is in the athletic department , if the child would want to be active in sports and have a chance at college scholarships ect....

Good luck in that venture and I salute you for the Pledge!!
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try and remember text has no voice inflections so some things may not be meant as taken take care in your interpritations


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