Favorite LL Disciplinary Inconsistancies
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Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
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08-15-2005 09:52
From: pandastrong Fairplay ...do not send me an email telling me there is a log file of something that did not occur. I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy OR Santa Clause..... Kind of late to the thread here but an observation that might be salient... I was greifed in a sandbox by some idiot using that replication virus that <unamed> has advertised in his forum sig. I did the wrong thing and panicked (I logged). I did not take a picture, and by the time the friendly Linden got there there was no evidence of anything. I could be wrong, but I am fairly sure that the logs also showed nothing. All this is just a way of saying that the logs might not always be accurate enough to trust, and additionaly, there is likley not the manpower to go through them and check for all the details. This tells me they should certainly change that language about "carefull review" of the server logs, (but also give folks the benefit of the doubt more). .
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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08-15-2005 10:59
From: Chip Midnight That's all well and good, and I agree... but does anyone have any suggestions beyond just complaining? Enforcing the TOS in SL is quite unlike enforcing it in any other MMOG. Our experiences and freedoms here are not constrained by game mechanics. They are nearly infinite, and as a result, so are the possible ways to cause trouble or grief. Trying to maintain law and order in SL is more akin to trying to maintain it in RL than to preventing hacks and exploits in WoW. In a world like that they only need to worry about what's possible within the confined mechanics of the game. In here we aren't confined in any way. Nothing is black and white. Nothing can be taken at face value.
Suggestions have been made over and over again about the disciplinary inconsistencies, but very little has changed. One of the main problems is the vague system where you are notified that you have received a warning, but not necessarily why. That is just wrong - it should clearly state your exact offense. To compare to World of Warcraft, since you made a comparison, I received a warning (lol) in WoW because I said "Shut up, you fucking 12 year olds" in the General chat. The email I received stated clearly why I received the warning, including the offending text and time and date it occured. It also included information on how to contest this if I wanted to. As far as the believability of Panda's story, I believe him fully. More importantly, he is talking about his experience - your believing or not believing it does not change it. These types of things have gone on in the past, I have actually experienced it myself. I received a warning for something I did not do, but I was able to reverse it. I will gladly take a warning for something I have done, but I won't accept one on my record for something I haven't - no matter how short staffed they might be or how grey the area it is. I don't blame Panda for feeling the same way.
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Richie Waves
Predictable
Join date: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 1,424
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08-15-2005 11:12
From: Aimee Weber For example, does anybody feel this problem is bad enough where they would be willing to pay for forum access as a premium service? The forum fees could go towards getting more manpower involved in making better diciplinary calls. I would love to hear some alternative suggestions. ooh no...I payed my fee!! and I will again next year...
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no u!
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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08-15-2005 11:25
If by "log of the game" it is meant, log of what all was said out loud at the time - well, then, the griefer could have said things that made it sound like something was done to him. I don't remember him saying anything, but then, I was being blasted from here to kingdom come and caged and all that, and not paying the best of attention, plus I know him to be capable of doing just such things. He's been warned and banned before and knows how to work the systems. Not only that, it's not a matter of just looking at the logs. There was a Linden there (while I was not there), plus there were 4-6 other people there! In a real court of law, from my point of view, this would be a slam dunk. Hopefully the other person involved was more than just warned. Hopefully he was suspended, and even more hopefully, he was banned. He is a repeat offender. As for what Cristiano said, it goes without saying that no one should ever be warned or disciplined for something without being told what that something was. Personally, I'm pretty sure that on the forum, threads get moved and people get warned - or not warned - based quite often on a merely cursory look at things (and probably with preconceptions). And doubtless half the things that get reported on the grid are dealt with similarly. For in-game incidents, only when someone makes a stink about it do they go into it further, and that makes sense. If no one involved got bent out of shape about it, then it must be ok, right? Right. Now in this case, with multiple people present, including a Linden, and with me having detailed and long knowledge of the griefer involved, I fully expect they will end by expunging this from Panda's record. If they don't, then I'm not done with it. coco
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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08-15-2005 11:26
From: Aimee Weber It seems to me that some of the imperfections in SL's diciplinary system are largely due to lack of staffing. Some of the "bad calls" made to lock a thread or move it to off-topic usually appear to be the result of a cursory look at the material rather than a careful examination. While the forums feel like an important part of the Second Life culture, I can see from a management perspective why it would be tempting to keep the staff focused on the actual game itself rather than the forums about the game (a temptation compounded by the rather small percentage of the SL population that actually USES the forums.)
It may be helpful to include with your favorite quip about disciplinary inconsistancies some suggestions for improvement. For example, does anybody feel this problem is bad enough where they would be willing to pay for forum access as a premium service? The forum fees could go towards getting more manpower involved in making better diciplinary calls. I would love to hear some alternative suggestions. Aimee, A locked or moved thread is not the problem - it generally is not even the forums where this happens. It tends to be with abuse reports in world more than the forum. They seem to only get a cursory investigation (which does not include talking to either side of the abuse report), and then making a ruling. That, combined with the lack of any kind of transparency on actual offenses and a difficult appeals process is the perfect environment for problems to occur, and they have. I am not sure there is a simple solution to it - it involves the dedication to actually truly investigate the accusations fully. I do think that stating clearly what the person did, down to the letter, would go a long way toward helping, and after 2 years and promises to do just that, very little has changed. No disciplinary system is ever going to be perfect - however, as SL continues to evolve, the disciplinary policies need to evolve as well, as does their enforcement.
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Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more. 
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
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08-15-2005 11:43
From: Cristiano Midnight Aimee,
A locked or moved thread is not the problem - it generally is not even the forums where this happens. It tends to be with abuse reports in world more than the forum. I brought up thread lockings as an example because I am able to see all the details invovled in the Linden's decision (unlike in word ARs). But I think the topic of my post holds true...that a complaint about diciplinary flaws should be coupled with a suggestion for improvement, even if the complaint is about in-world problems. From: Cristiano Midnight They seem to only get a cursory investigation (which does not include talking to either side of the abuse report), and then making a ruling. Again, my post addresses this. I think it's because there are too few Lindens handling too much diciplinary work. From: Cristiano Midnight That, combined with the lack of any kind of transparency on actual offenses and a difficult appeals process is the perfect environment for problems to occur, and they have. The problem with transparency is that the people doing the A/R (often the victims) become exposed to retaliation and harassment. This policy has obvious shortcomings but in my opinion it is the better option. From: Cristiano Midnight I am not sure there is a simple solution to it - it involves the dedication to actually truly investigate the accusations fully. Not a bad idea. Where do you think the additional diciplinary man-hours should come from? From: Cristiano Midnight I do think that stating clearly what the person did, down to the letter, would go a long way toward helping, and after 2 years and promises to do just that, very little has changed. No disciplinary system is ever going to be perfect - however, as SL continues to evolve, the disciplinary policies need to evolve as well, as does their enforcement. And I believe including suggestions along with complaints is a constructive way to help LL do this.
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
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08-15-2005 11:45
From: someone ... I'm not trying to dismiss anything. I'm trying to point out that we're lucky LL even tries to see things in shades of gray instead of just in black and white. I don't work at LL. I don't have access to server logs or know what they contain, or how easy or difficult it is to recreate events in context with that information. Neither does anyone else except LL. How can I judge their performance based on nothing but hearsay and supposition? Dirt simple way to be falsely acused with no recourse: - Teleport
- Collide upon rez at telehub with AV already there
- Collided AV does Help->View PvP report
- Collided AV Reports Abuse from PvP report window
- LL has no way to distinguish between this action and having pushgunned the collided AV
It could well be the case that the shooter's gun caused panda to bump the shooter. As far as the records show, he is "guilty" of PvP abuse. I just tested this in game. It can happen.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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08-15-2005 12:09
From: Aimee Weber
The problem with transparency is that the people doing the A/R (often the victims) become exposed to retaliation and harassment. This policy has obvious shortcomings but in my opinion it is the better option.
I am not referring to the accuser, though it is an odd system and makes false accusations much easier. I am simply referring to what seems like a no-brainer: please tell us EXACTLY what we are being warned/suspended for. Not some vague reference to legalese in the TOS/CS. This has been suggested many times - Robin even committed to improvements in this area, but overall, the emails sent out for a warning remain quite unclear in many cases. A good use of man hours would also be to spend some time actually contacting those involved on either side of the A/R for further follow up if necessary - especially if the situation is unclear. Also, putting more emphasis on pure acts of disruption and not being as overly forgiving as they have been would actually cut down on the amount of time needed to deal with some things. Improving the forensic tools they have to investigate situations (enhancing logs with more information, for example) would also help. As the world continues to grow, if the disciplinary system does not scale with it, the problems will only worsen - and those growing pains are already being felt.
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Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more. 
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
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08-15-2005 12:34
I'll say it again much more briefly: If LL was less lenient with real griefers - people who shoot up an event, for example - they'd have far less policing to do. It is their own policies that have made this more taxing for them.
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pandastrong Fairplay
all bout the BANG POW NOW
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,920
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08-15-2005 12:37
From: Malachi Petunia I'll say it again much more briefly: If LL was less lenient with real griefers - people who shoot up an event, for example - they'd have far less policing to do. It is their own policies that have made this more taxing for them. Your pithy will be your undoing!
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"Honestly, you are a gem -- fun, creative, and possessing strong social convictions. I think LL should be paying you to be in their game."~ Ulrika Zugzwang on the iconography of pandastrong in the media "That's no good. Someone is going to take your place as SL's cutest boy while you're offline."~ Ingrid Ingersoll on the topic of LL refusing to pay pandastrong for being in their game.
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Margaret Mfume
I.C.
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 2,492
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08-15-2005 12:56
I pithy the Second Life Member.
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hush 
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
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08-15-2005 13:06
Yes I'm following up to my own post but I wanted that thought-bite above to stand by itself. True story: show and tell event held on my property, I was playing sargeant-at-arms-without-arms to let the host concentrate on hosting. Sure enough, 10 minutes into the event, a naked, gun wielding griefer flies in from the horizon and shoots the host. I eject and ban the shooter and call a Liaison. The greifer is now outside the ban line trying to shoot up the attendees. The Liaison arrives and begins talking to the griefer.
If I were god, I'd handle the situation like this: I've got a clear griefer on my hands, I've got two players in good standing with 4 years in-game between them saying that griefer shot the place up. I've got 20 attendees on hand with no common connection but that they've attended an event. I freeze/eject the griefer, I ask the 22 people if anyone disputes the claim that the griefer flew in and shot the place up. If there are no disputes, instant perma-ban. Period.
But I'm not god nor a Linden, but I've seen this happen too damn often. I imagine the thinking is "well maybe griefer didn't know that flying naked into a PG event and shooting everyone is bad so let's reform him". Given that the starter inventory contains a gun, who knows?
Another example, a well known live musician holds regular streaming concerts that are very well attended (100 AVs last time I went). If LL is looking for "content" and has a fondness for streaming, I can't imagine something more to their interests. For a few weeks these concerts were getting sound-bombed by griefers throwing down noise makers around the concert thus thwarting it. The owner of the sound-bomb is clear even if the griefer has logged out. I can't imagine a line of thinking that says "the griefer must not have known what he was doing". With the sound-bomb in hand, you've got a smoking gun with the griefer's handprints all over it. The concert griefing has stopped... for now. I strongly suspect that it was a matter of weeks instead of minutes because of the "love thy griefer" policy.
To reiterate, LL policy is making their own jobs harder. Pftt.
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Catherine Cotton
Tis Elfin
Join date: 2 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,001
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08-15-2005 14:10
Favorite LL Disciplinary Inconsistencies
That's easy; banning some for naming names, inciting fighting, harassment, and rude behavior. While looking the other way; for some of the biggest offenders who have consistency done so for excessive amounts of time.
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Ones delivery of their opinion is not an issue. What is an issue with me is the consistent attacking of people on a personal level. That in my opinion now means that the poster cannot legitimately debate the issue. Leaving them to derail the issue at hand with double talk, innuendo, false facts and personal insults.
There is in my opinion no reason what so ever to personally attack ppl when we are all "suppose" to be adults in a discussion. It is also my opinion that the majority of ppl will not post to the sl forums until such a time they are assured that they will be treated with dignity.
Until such a time I too have very little to say.
Catherine
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pandastrong Fairplay
all bout the BANG POW NOW
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,920
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09-06-2005 09:35
Wow, still no response from LL.
I think I will summon the MJW!
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"Honestly, you are a gem -- fun, creative, and possessing strong social convictions. I think LL should be paying you to be in their game."~ Ulrika Zugzwang on the iconography of pandastrong in the media "That's no good. Someone is going to take your place as SL's cutest boy while you're offline."~ Ingrid Ingersoll on the topic of LL refusing to pay pandastrong for being in their game.
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Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
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09-06-2005 09:38
And one time then when Cory wore a mask and it scared me and then when so he laughed and when I sat down and cried then once there was and the Linden told me to stop so then Cory didn't go away and well that Linden should have helped me.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-06-2005 09:39
You resurrected this thread just to say that? Panda, I think power is going to your head. coco
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Cory Edo
is on a 7 second delay
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,851
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09-06-2005 09:45
From: Khamon Fate And one time then when Cory wore a mask and it scared me and then when so he laughed and when I sat down and cried then once there was and the Linden told me to stop so then Cory didn't go away and well that Linden should have helped me. BOO 
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pandastrong Fairplay
all bout the BANG POW NOW
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,920
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09-06-2005 09:48
From: Cocoanut Koala You resurrected this thread just to say that? Panda, I think power is going to your head. coco Well, a pretty strong theme in this thread was LL DISCIPLINARY INCONSISTANCIES. Adjacent to the concept of disciplinary inconsistancy is appeal inaction/non-responsiveness. I thought I would keep informed parties abreast. And, btw... there are now a ton of officers of MJW that are equally if not more retarded than I. So I would put the whole "power" thingie under your pillow for the next toothfairy that pops up. 
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"Honestly, you are a gem -- fun, creative, and possessing strong social convictions. I think LL should be paying you to be in their game."~ Ulrika Zugzwang on the iconography of pandastrong in the media "That's no good. Someone is going to take your place as SL's cutest boy while you're offline."~ Ingrid Ingersoll on the topic of LL refusing to pay pandastrong for being in their game.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-06-2005 09:58
From: pandastrong Fairplay Well, a pretty strong theme in this thread was LL DISCIPLINARY INCONSISTANCIES. Adjacent to the concept of disciplinary inconsistancy is appeal inaction/non-responsiveness. I thought I would keep informed parties abreast. And, btw... there are now a ton of officers of MJW that are equally if not more retarded than I. So I would put the whole "power" thingie under your pillow for the next toothfairy that pops up.  You're the one with the power, Panda, not me. You're an officer, I'm not. coco
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pandastrong Fairplay
all bout the BANG POW NOW
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,920
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09-06-2005 10:01
From: Cocoanut Koala You're the one with the power, Panda, not me. You're an officer, I'm not. coco Did you just totally evade my entire last post with a red herring the size of Moby Dick? 
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"Honestly, you are a gem -- fun, creative, and possessing strong social convictions. I think LL should be paying you to be in their game."~ Ulrika Zugzwang on the iconography of pandastrong in the media "That's no good. Someone is going to take your place as SL's cutest boy while you're offline."~ Ingrid Ingersoll on the topic of LL refusing to pay pandastrong for being in their game.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-06-2005 10:13
Get real. You're in high dudgeon, romping all over the forums with this thing. coco
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pandastrong Fairplay
all bout the BANG POW NOW
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,920
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09-06-2005 10:15
From: Cocoanut Koala Get real. You're in high dudgeon, romping all over the forums with this thing. coco Can you address the original post? I request this as an officer of the Metaverse Justice Watch.
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"Honestly, you are a gem -- fun, creative, and possessing strong social convictions. I think LL should be paying you to be in their game."~ Ulrika Zugzwang on the iconography of pandastrong in the media "That's no good. Someone is going to take your place as SL's cutest boy while you're offline."~ Ingrid Ingersoll on the topic of LL refusing to pay pandastrong for being in their game.
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DogSpot Boxer
vortex thruster
Join date: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 671
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09-06-2005 10:25
From: pandastrong Fairplay Can you address the original post? I request this as an officer of the Metaverse Justice Watch. Snort! Good one. --- This thread is a funny one. On another board I read, discussing being banned or being given a time out is discouraged and may get the offender another time out. FWIW, disciplinary actions will pretty much always be inconsistent. Each moderator will have different tolerance for stuff and given that moderators are people too, things may strike them differently at different times. I've been given two timeouts on the other board. One deserved and one wholly undeserved. I wear it proudly. 
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