Blatant intellectual property THEFT!

This is how it started...I got a phone call from my business partner Darrly saying "Hey it looks like someone else is selling dogs in SL."

My response, "Cool! A little competition should be fun!"

So we logged in and went to see the "competition". Lo and behold, they were not competitors...they were more like...well..shall we say thieves?

I won't name names (Billie, Nate and Jackson) but a new dog store opened up with virtually the same pets as we sell. Ok, the dog models were a bit different (although some were very reminiscent of our lovable Darwood mutt - especially in the face) so I decided to buy one to check out what it could do.

Much to my shock, they bark IDENTICALLY to our D&D dogs (obviously the same sound file) and all their commands were IDENTICAL to ours. It's no coincidence that these dogs respond to the EXACT commands ours do. What commands, you ask? Here's a list:

Beg
Play Dead
Roll Over
Sit
Stay
Come
Speak
Reset
Commands
Help

That's our exact command list, verbatim (minus our Train and Landmark commands). Ok, that in itself is not completely illegal, but upon further investigation we realized they may very well be using a modified version of our dog scripts that took us months to create. And the bark sound IS EXACTLY the same wav file. Not cool.

Here's how we figure this happened...the day of our original launch we made a mistake and sold a handful of dogs UNLOCKED, meaning anyone could see the code. We quickly shut the store down to fix the error and contacted all customers to do a trade-in. We know these people and feel we can trust that they did not knowingly give our work away. BUT the fact is, someone could have shown this dog to someone else and they could have taken the code without their knowledge. This is mostly speculation but we have a pretty good idea of the people possibly involved in this unfortunate incident, and blame only ourselves for the botched release.

However, taking the code and building a business around OUR work without permission is more than wrong. Again, we have no direct proof that it is the same codebase, but the similarities are way more than coincidental, not to mention the sound file robbery.

What can be done about this? Perhaps a Linden needs to arbitrate and/or investigate? Or maybe as a community we can rate these people poorly and not visit their establishment in the name of poor taste and unscrupulous business ethics.

Needless to say I am very disappointed that anyone in SL could be so blatantly unethical. Like I said, I don't mind competition...I actually welcome it. But don't make us compete against our own re-branded creations. When people find out the truth (and believe me, they will) they will only look down on you. Hamlet Linden knows we were first.

Remember, if the store is not in Clara and doesn't say "D&D Dogs, Inc.", then the products inside are inferior, dumbed down rip offs.

Glad I got that off my chest. Now something needs to happen...

Hey this just proves the people that play this game, some of them anyways are extremely immature and all they do is go around pretending to be someone they are not. It dosen't surprise me to see this happening though, I do hope that whoever stole the code or gave away the code, should that be the case have something bad happen in their SL expierience in some profound way. But that's like any game really, you give a chance to have something neat or good, and you'll always have someone treading all over it not caring who is hurt in the process. It basically is funny to me, here's why. You must realize this is not anywhere close to real life, yet people think they gotta make as much money in a game, no less, as they possibly can and for what reason? Just to go around saying they are number 1 in money? So friggin what, dont impress me none. Good luck Driftwood.

I must agree with you here, this is just plain wrong.

I would suggest everyone visit the "new" dog sellers and show them in ratings exactly how we all feel about this sort of thing.

Perhaps D&D could provide Landmarks for everyone that would like to show their "support" for this new dog eat dog world.



Bob "The Builder" Bunderfeld

ok , ya this is Nate007 Groshomme , im using this trial since i cant post on my regular name.

Ok , everyone seems to be failing to see the lack of complexity of these dog scripts , which i spent my hard time scripting even though it only took about an hour. The dog is just a sensor that grabs your coordinates , and then adjusts itself a bit. all the commands are simple rotations , if you would like to have a linden verify that these are in fact not your modded script go right ahead.

I really dont appreciate being stomped on for something that you have no proof whats so ever that i stole your script. It is true that i used your dogs as a reference but not your script. The only reason i made the script was because u are charging way too much for them IMO.

If you had your dog sit , roll over , beg , etc. and your neighbor saw your dog do this and taught his dog to do the same thing , would you go over there and complain about him because your dog did the trick first ??

I am also in the process of making the dogs go into their dog houses + fetch BTW. And do you realize how many scripters on SL could pull off the exact same script i did indeed script ??

The immature ones are the ones who with no proof , nothing to back themselves up go and rant about their competition because they have the same tricks and commands. This is the last post i will be making so dont try and make an argument im just here to state the facts.

what about the identical bark sound?

i have not seen the "new" dogs yet. how close does the animation mimic the d&d dogs scripts? d&d dogs animation is pretty nice, and could not have taken a "hour" to complete. so if they move the same, sound the same, look the same.........

This strikes me as pretty low. I'm inclined to believe Driftwood since I know someone that did get a fully unlocked dog. Without going to check it out yet, there seems to be too many coincedences. And then to come and claim to have done the script in an hour is even lower. I wonder if Nate's dogs can be taken back to his store to be taught new tricks in the same way that Driftwood's do.

When I first came in-game, and started learning the scripting language and its capabilities, I though to myself, "It would be SO cool to make pets! I know, I'll make a dog!"

I had no knowledge of D&D Dogs at that time. It just seemed to be a natural thing to do.

Then I learned (by coincidence) that someone else had done it already. So I decided to go in a different direction. But if I had continued along the 'doggie' theme, without ever checking out the details of D&D Dogs, I might well have created my own, remarkably similar, version of their dogs. It's a natural fall-out of the capabilities of LSL.

But it's very unlikely that my doggie would have come out looking just like D&D's. And even more unlikely that my doggie's bark would have turned out just like theirs. Unless I 'borrowed' it.

Being inspired by another's work is one thing. Blatant rip-offs are quite another.

I've since taken a good look at the D&D Dogs product line. They're way cute. I'm glad I chose not to compete.

I was one of those who got an unlocked dog and I'm very sure I didn't release the code. Pretty horrible situation. I know competition is good. But to copy something as large scale as D&D's dogs with exactly the same commands is just being a$$holes.

Also, tooting your own horn on scripting is just lame.

This has BEEN going on. I'm glad to see someone posting about it. There's a store in world that has sold stolen wings and costumes. That sells items they didnt make found in avatar central and sells free items at HUGE markups.

People that have been wronged have complained loudly and so far nothing has been done. Personally I have a hard time getting behind the "King George" thing but this I back 100%.

Something needs to be done!

As long as we're on this subject:

A few of you may have heard of or seen my cloak of invisibility. Well, for a few seconds at a certain event, I left modify and copy permissions on. Luckly, I found out I did, so I thought everything was taken care of. Until, that is, I got an IM from Charlie Omega asking me how it worked. I knew I didn't sell it to him, so I asked him how he got it. Well, a certain person named Nick (you know who you are) has been going around selling it claiming he made it for the low low price of 500 dollars. Yes, I sell it for 1000, because I put hard work into it, and I want my work to pay off. You can't pretend you didn't know on this one buddy, so I will ask you now to stop selling it and IM or PM me with a list of everyone you already sold it to. You are NOT Robin Hood.

lindens could quickly check the code and compare couldn't they?

And also...



Do you have any idea WHY you aren't allowed to post under Grosshome anymore Nate?! Are you that thick?! My god! You obviously stole it in the most perverbial sence and modified the script a little bit so you could sell it for your own profit. Yes that's harsh, but it's true. I would hate to have something like this happen to me, and like I said before, because someone is charging too much for something "in your opinion" it doesn't give you the right to just take it. This is not an idea you're taking, this is a product.

Someone's hard work went into this, and that's the reason they're selling it for that much.

You know, when I found out that someone was trying to re-sell the house they bought for me at a profit from what they purchased it, I didn't appreciate it one bit either.

People need to understand that hard work goes into any product made in this game. Some of my structures take me up to three weeks to finalize, and the last thing I want to see happen, is someone buy them, then turn around and sell them as their own. It's not JUST the structure or the money, it's my REPUTATION, I want to have people know that I built this or that!

Nate, I have to agree with everything that's been said here. It's painfully obvious what you have done, and it's quite proven by you using the same .wav file for the bark. You made an attempt to mask your tracks I'm sure, but your attempts have backfired on you.

I don't mind that someone wants to compete, but to steal your competitions product, then make slight changes and call it your own is not even right in the Real World, what makes you think it would be right in the Second Life?

If you have any decency you would stop your production of "fake dogs" and go into some other business. It shouldn't be all that hard for you, I mean being an Expert Scripter and all right?



Bob "The Builder" Bunderfeld

Ok, I have a lot to say, so here goes:

1st, Nate, why can't you post with your regular name? Are you suspended? Just curious.

I never stated as a fact that Nate ripped off our code directly. I even said I have no proof of this...and only the Lindens would know for sure. I was simply voicing one possibility of how this could have happened. You have to admit, Nate, that due to the similarities in your product this question would inevitably be asked.

Yes, for us scripters we can see how simple the script can be. But that doesn't mean you have to copy the functionality almost exactly. Don't you realize that backwards engineering a product is one thing, but you need to make it your own, otherwise people could assume the worst (as I did). In real life, backwards engineering happens all the time. But the people doing it are smart enough to differentiate their product from the original in some way. And not just undercutting the price.

And the script may be simple to you and me now, but this was my first real scripting project. This is what I used to learn LSL, which is why it took me a couple months to complete. I thank each of my dogs daily for teaching me LSL.

Also, the sound is still an issue. Again, no proof that it is the same sound file, but when I rezzed my dog and your dog at the same time and told them to "speak" it was very difficult to tell which one was barking when. They sound identical. And that cannot be coincidence.

I've said it before...we welcome competition. It's the only way to ensure non-stagnation of product lines. I was actually excited when I heard there was another dog shop. But put yourself in our shoes, Nate. If you go check out your competition and find almost the exact same product, with possibly some of the same parts, you have to wonder. To your credit, you did a great job copying us (although I think our dogs are cuter, but I'm biased!).

Oh, and you say you did this because you felt our dogs were too expensive. That doesn't give you the right to steal it and make it cheaper, if that's what you did. And personally, $400 for a dog compared to your $300 shows that you were merely trying to steal our customers by undercutting our price and selling basically the same thing. Granted, our dogs have to learn the tricks that you've built into yours (same tricks), but this was part of my scripting innovation as well as my marketing idea. Buy the dog that knows 2 tricks, pay for each trick you want it to learn if you wish. Oh, and by the way, we have sold dozens of dogs at this price point, along with thousands of dollars in trick sales. So it seems to be working fine for us.

I would like to take this time to thank everyone who has supported our venture from the start, helped us iron out the bugs, and been nothing but kind to us while we were building our business. I'd also like to thank everyone in this thread who support our position in this matter, it is very much appreciated by both me and Darrly.

All I can say Nate is...bad form, man...bad form. Be a man and join this thread again so you can defend yourself, or explain in more detail what you did. I'd still like to hear about the wav file.

Doh Darwin! That cloaking device is the most impressive thing I've seen, cause it was someting I never expected to see (maybe even something the lindens didnt intend to exist )

I was the one to tell Charlie to talk to you, since when I saw he had one we started trying to figure it out and he didn't know who made it. I thought it was odd that he didn't know it was yours, but then I shrugged it off. :/

Driftwood, check your Private Messages



Bob "The Builder" Bunderfeld

Madox, I owe ya one

Cloaking device, eh? For avatars or objects?

Well anything you don't want to look at, it's moddable


NOTE: Moddable doesn't mean you can modify it, it means you can mod it lol

Well its unfortunate that textures and scripts don't come with a auto stamp like objects, that shows the originator.

I am glad I found out who made the cloaker. After a long talk with Darwin and him and I setting up the cloaker in a project of mine. I gave him $500.

He said I didn't have to but I reminded him that if Nick didn't sell it to me and I saw Darwin with it as the creator and knew at first it was his I would most likely have bought it from him for $1000.

So in a nut shell, we need name stamps on everything so credit can be placed where credit is due.

BTW anyone, don't ask for the cloaker from me as you can see I don't give out what is not mine to give unless I get permission from the owner/creator.

Ok,,,, Ive never stolen a thing from anyone !
I will say that D&D Dogs had a good idea! But so did the person that first started a clothing store !
So i guess now its not ok to sell a certain item if another person is already selling one!??? Do you sell pigs?? hmmm i doo,, and monkeys ?? i do? I am script illiterate ,,so stealing is mot an option and neither is writing a script! I had some one make it for me and also had some help from Ben Linden!
As far as the sounds i got them from the internet! So if they sound like yours ,,,, i dont know what to tell ya! I havent been online very much at all,, well on here, i just am getting tired of the crap on here, but KNOW THIS!!!!! i NEVER STOLE ANYTHING FROM ANYONE! The pet idea is a good one but the idea may not have been yours first! ive been trying to get it going way before you guys did! but ya beat me to it! SO WHAT! IDONT CARE! BUT ill say that sorry if ya want to slam me or my product but in all honesty i never took anything from your pets or you! Last post im making,, just my statement, here to have fun not argue and fight, I wish D&D all the luck Truely,, see ya guys later and good luck.

We never accused you of stealing it from anyone... goosfraba....

Oh, and don't you think it's kind of funny that you can get all worked up saying that you didn't steal it from anyone, then tell us to just have fun and relax? Hmmm....

Jackson,

I always said I had no proof of actual stealing, but if you were working on these way before us, why is it that they do EXACTLY what ours does with the EXACT same commands? Again, competition is welcome. But your product is so close to ours that it will make people wonder who stole what from who. Newbies may not know D&D Dogs and may think ours is the copy. They won't think we each came up with the concept independently...they are too similar for that. They WILL think, however, that either we worked on it together and opened two stores, or that one of us copied the other.

Ok, so you may not have stolen any actual parts or scripts. But the implementation details I would have to say were stolen. There is no doubt about that. So why not make them a bit more unique to show that you guys have some creativity of your own?

All I'm saying is that this is a game and a certain level of common courtesy to your fellow Lifer is appreciated. I would never think of creating a duplicate product and selling it as my own even if I didn't steal a single prim or line of code. It would make me look bad and most likely get me a bad reputation in the game.

I would, however, not think twice about seeing someone else's product and saying to myself "Wow, that's a great idea! How can I improve on this concept?" Then go about making it from scratch without copying the implementation details. If my product works exactly the same as the one that inspired me, then it's a dupe...a rip off. If I manage to improve it and make it obvious that it's different and unique, that's true inspiration.

So I'm willing to concede the fact that you MAY not have stolen a single piece from our products...but I will argue to death the point that the implementation was a total rip off, which in my opinion, is unethical practice in SL. Maybe not so much in RL due to certain laws and population statistics, but we live in a not so big world in SL, and this will only serve to confuse the general population, and give one of us a bad reputation. We don't want that and I'm sure you don't either.

My suggestion: Redo your dogs. Change the sound. Change the commands. Make it unique and different enough from ours that you will provide real competition.

I hope you reply. Nate already bowed out of this thread, and I hear you saying that is all you have to say on the matter. Seems a bit childish to me, and not a great way to make new sales from anyone reading this. At least without your voice, I have no other way to judge the facts except by the last comments you made.

Sure got quiet. Darwin, I love your patent idea by the way. Did this discussion spark that innovation?