Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE

Thoughts of a Fool: Equality, Impartiality, and the Forums

Foolish Frost
Grand Technomancer
Join date: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,433
09-22-2005 07:31
By now, a lot of you know me, and if you don't you're one of the luck few.

<grins>

Ok, let's get this rant started...


I have heard, over and over, that people feel that the lindens are not impartial enough. That they Close some threads and not others, that they do not deal with griefing in all the same way, that they don't even act like proper automatons and have committed the monstrous sin on having... <shudder> OPINIONS!

I have an answer to this problem! And that answer is:

DUH. Welcome to the human race!


By now, those disagreeing with me have tuned me out, and they rest of you are like preaching to the choir, but try and stick with this idea anyway...


THE LINDENS SHOULD BE IMPARTIAL:

Riiiiight. They should. And in a perfect world, courts, police officers, and politicians would be too! The fact that a linden is actually a person, with likes and dislikes, is an ugly little truth that people better get used to. Let's try and example:

BOB: Hey hank, what's got you down, man?
HANK: Bunch of guys were yelling at me online because they think I suck as a linden.
BOB: Why on earth would they think that?
HANK: The sim went down from an attack, and they blamed me for not stopping it in advance.
BOB: .... Oooookay. Who were these twits?
HANK: Greene Avatar and her little crew.
BOB: Wow. Well, hope they don't need help again, cause...

Now, we would like to think that does not happen, but really: We have all worked in a team before. We KNOW how it works. Is it fair? In a way, yes. Word of mouth is the ultimate rating system.

Now, I'm sure that LL has orders in place to remind the crew that they should not take such things personally. But even if they don't act like it, The feeling is still there.


Considering the amount of abuse Lindens take on a regular basis, I'm amazed they talk to us at all outside of work. All we tend to do to them on average is whine at them when we are in trouble, yell at them when don't like something, or grovel at them when we want something.

Yup. As a whole, residents make a GREAT impression.

You're lucky they're as impartial as they are.


THE LINDENS SHOULD NOT HAVE OPINIONS:

Actually, the point is that Lindens should not air their opinions in public, but as we mentioned above, we frail humans have a tendency to have them regardless of if we voice them. The only time you will find someone without an opinion is when he's ignorant of the subject and wise enough to know it.


THE LINDENS SHOULD TREAT ALL OFFENCES/FORUM POSTS EQUALLY.

Let me tell you a story that actually happened to me: I was driving along the highway, keeping pace with the other cars around me at about 75MPH (speeding, kids). I was not weaving, and cars were even passing me like I was going too slow.

Well, I saw the lights of a police cruiser flashing behind me, and pulled over. He came up, and proceeded to ticket me. When I asked why I was singled out, when I was going slower than everyone else...

"I could catch you, and your were in front of me at the time."

I shut up and took the ticket. His logic made perfectly good sense, and regardless of how fair it was, it was ultimately the truth: He couldn't catch everyone. Period.

Well, guess what, forums are the same way. People complain that threads attacking some people are closed while others are not. The truth is, some people's names showing up in a thread are an automatic warning sign of trouble! You see that name mentioned, 9/10 times it's a fight getting ready to happen.

So they see those first, and sometimes the others not at all. Simple, aye?

Also, you have to think on it from the point of view of the moderator, and not the thread: He mod has closed over 100 threads about ANDY2134 so far this year, and see's another. One glance says it's the same rehash, going the same way, WITH THE SAME POSTERS, as the other 100 times. Lock/delete move on...


See what I mean?



So, what is my point? That the levels of absolute impartiality that would be needed to stop this are not possible with humans. Perhaps when SL markets the first Prim-Prime AI we can get that kind of perfection...

And when that day comes, I will welcome your new SL overlords, and chase after wherever the real lindens have gone.

:cool:

Later,
Foolish Frost
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
09-22-2005 07:37
I read no post longer than my hand.

~Ulrika~
_____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Margaret Mfume
I.C.
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 2,492
09-22-2005 07:39
Nonsense. The Lindens aren't real. They are pixels just like you and me. I have seen them.
_____________________
hush
Foolish Frost
Grand Technomancer
Join date: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,433
09-22-2005 07:42
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
I read no post longer than my hand.

~Ulrika~


Sorry. I don't do abridged rants. Thank you for wandering by!
Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
09-22-2005 08:25
From: Foolish Frost
Sorry. I don't do abridged rants. Thank you for wandering by!


But I do!

SUMMARY:

Lindens are not automatons, but people. Asking them to not act like people is educated stupid.


*although I've heard Kona is actually a cyborg you cannot hope to defeat unless you possess a giant robot that also turns into an aircraft carrier.
_____________________
Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?”
Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff
Catherine Cotton
Tis Elfin
Join date: 2 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,001
09-22-2005 09:06
Great post Foolish thanks for the excellent read :)

Cat
_____________________
Pypo Chung
Residen Meatbag
Join date: 26 Dec 2003
Posts: 220
09-22-2005 09:17
Lindens are people too, unless you wantr a bunch of robots to replace them and make no sence and repeat spoted words back like ALICE, then your in luck someone cares to listen to the wineing at all....When i get that i usually just go on busy mode. I only get about 5-15 ims in a week, but for lindents, that can be up to 45-100.....scares me sometimes howthey can deal with such situations as people blaming everyone else for their problems....if it were me i'd rather smack them silly and set everyone out on their own! Smelly humans all disgust me with your problems....Enjoy life not hinder it!
Moxie Grumby
the errant Miss Cupcake
Join date: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 48
09-22-2005 09:18
There's a trite joke in here somewhere about how your name is a misnomer, but I'll leave it alone.

I am absolutely of a mind with you, and glad that you're around to say what I've been thinking much better than I could've.
Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
09-22-2005 10:12
From: Moxie Grumby
There's a trite joke in here somewhere about how your name is a misnomer, but I'll leave it alone.


You're absolutely right.

He's not frosty at all.
_____________________
Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?”
Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff
DogSpot Boxer
vortex thruster
Join date: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 671
09-22-2005 10:31
Your name may be Foolish, but you are no fool.
Foolish Frost
Grand Technomancer
Join date: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,433
09-24-2005 07:22
Thank you all. What can I say...

"...Where none will listen to the wise, all will listen to a Fool..."

:D

Later,
Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
09-24-2005 08:22
People give the Lindens shit, and the Lindens often don't deserve it.

OK.... Is there a part 2?
_____________________
Foolish Frost
Grand Technomancer
Join date: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,433
09-24-2005 08:28
From: Seth Kanahoe
People give the Lindens shit, and the Lindens often don't deserve it.

OK.... Is there a part 2?


Hmnnn? In what way?
Emma Soyinka
Got moo? o_o
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 218
09-24-2005 08:29
Yes, the Lindens are humans too. This is of course the ultimate argument why we should entirely stop holding them up to any measure of impartiality.

Ah-huh.
Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
09-24-2005 08:30
Amen and pass the plate.
_____________________
Just remember, they only care about you when you're buying sims.
Foolish Frost
Grand Technomancer
Join date: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,433
09-24-2005 08:36
From: Emma Soyinka
Yes, the Lindens are humans too. This is of course the ultimate argument why we should entirely stop holding them up to any measure of impartiality.

Ah-huh.


<raises an eyebrow>

Annnnnnnd... You can point to where I advised anything of the sort, or even had that statment as a point? Or even went in that direction?

Absolutes are a poor argument. Saying "we should entirely stop holding them up to any measure of impartiality" is like saying "we should hold them to a draconic set of rules that allows them no lee-way and forces them to follow absolute rules at all times"
Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
09-24-2005 08:38
From: Foolish Frost
Hmnnn? In what way?


In this way: the idea has been expressed a thousand times before in a thousand different ways in a thousand threads. Other than your name on the initial post, what do you have to say that is different?

Or are you simply saying, "I agree"?

Which is good enough, I guess, to get a few "absolutely brilliant" comments from certain people around here.

I'm serious, btw - I'd be interested to know what the next step in the argument is. I haven't seen anyone take it that far.
_____________________
Foolish Frost
Grand Technomancer
Join date: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,433
09-24-2005 08:38
From: Cienna Samiam
Amen and pass the plate.


Amen to which opinion? Sorry, hard to tell with threads...
Emma Soyinka
Got moo? o_o
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 218
09-24-2005 08:41
Yes, they should aspire to draconic rules of impartiality. (is that even a word? oh well, english is weird enough so nobody will notice me adding weirdness to the mix) Yes they should aspire to them and yes they will fall short of them.

However they should still aspire to them. And when they fall short it needs to be pointed out. It'd be amusing if judges were excused for being partial in court because "well, they're just human!". Human error is an inevitable but it's up to the humans in questions to minimize the chances of it and to minimize it actually happening. And yes, it is not only good and right to point out where people fall short of it, it's everyone's duty.

I've run an IRC D&D channel of moderate size for over 3 years now, and I hold myself up to these standards as well and not only expect people to call me on it if I fall short, I want them to call me on it.

"Give the poor guys a break" is a nice sentiment, it's just not practical, I'm afraid.
Foolish Frost
Grand Technomancer
Join date: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,433
09-24-2005 08:44
From: Seth Kanahoe
I'm serious, btw - I'd be interested to know what the next step in the argument is. I haven't seen anyone take it that far.


Please, since you seem to have an idea of a part 2, have at and begin it. I'm always for expanding a discussion!

To be honest, I said what I was going to, and if others have said it before, then so be it. I've never been ashamed to share an opinion with others... Keep in mind, it does not mean I'm always right, or that my opinions are right to all people, but hey: Free will is a bugger...


Now as to the rest, I'm terribly sorry I repeated the same idea someone else had, but are you saying you have not? Can you show me anything new under the sun? Every idea, except for a very few, are rehashes of something I've seen somewhere else. It's just the way life seems to go.
Charissa Korvin
Registered User
Join date: 15 May 2005
Posts: 138
09-24-2005 08:47
Excellent post! I'm happy to see someone actually say something that makes sense regarding the Lindens on these forums for a change.
Someone else in this thread stated these "arguements" are the same as a thousand others that have been stated previously in a thousand other posts. That may be true but for some of us this is the first we've seen of this kind.

I think it's safe to assume that the Lindens are doing the best job they can do given the tools and community they have at their disposal. Some may disagree with that statement and to them I say "Are you a Linden? Have you done it for more than 6 months? How do you know they aren't for certain?"

I have seen (and heard in world) more whining about the Lindens and their apparent lack of affirmative action in my 5 months in SL than I've heard of other community service reps in any other online game I've ever played.

I have to admit, I believe that many of those who merely regurgitate arguements and grips about the Lindens do it solely to get attention as some humans are often want to do.

*Throws her two pennnies in the jar and moves on*
Charissa Korvin
Registered User
Join date: 15 May 2005
Posts: 138
09-24-2005 08:48
Excellent post! :D
I'm happy to see someone actually say something that makes sense regarding the Lindens on these forums for a change.
Someone else in this thread stated these "arguements" are the same as a thousand others that have been stated previously in a thousand other posts. That may be true but for some of us this is the first we've seen of this kind.

I think it's safe to assume that the Lindens are doing the best job they can do given the tools and community they have at their disposal. Some may disagree with that statement and to them I say "Are you a Linden? Have you done it for more than 6 months? How do you know they aren't for certain?"

I have seen (and heard in world) more whining about the Lindens and their apparent lack of affirmative action in my 5 months in SL than I've heard of other community service reps in any other online game I've ever played.

I have to admit, I believe that many of those who merely regurgitate arguements and grips about the Lindens do it solely to get attention as some humans are often want to do.

*Throws her two pennies in the jar and moves on* ;)
Foolish Frost
Grand Technomancer
Join date: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,433
09-24-2005 08:50
From: Emma Soyinka
Yes, they should aspire to draconic rules of impartiality. (is that even a word? oh well, english is weird enough so nobody will notice me adding weirdness to the mix) Yes they should aspire to them and yes they will fall short of them.

However they should still aspire to them. And when they fall short it needs to be pointed out. It'd be amusing if judges were excused for being partial in court because "well, they're just human!". Human error is an inevitable but it's up to the humans in questions to minimize the chances of it and to minimize it actually happening. And yes, it is not only good and right to point out where people fall short of it, it's everyone's duty.

I've run an IRC D&D channel of moderate size for over 3 years now, and I hold myself up to these standards as well and not only expect people to call me on it if I fall short, I want them to call me on it.

"Give the poor guys a break" is a nice sentiment, it's just not practical, I'm afraid.



I think that is a word, an I've used it before.

As to the rest: I respect your opinions as well thought out by your views, and dissagree somewhat. That frame of mind lends itself to the idea of the brute force method of perfection. Let me explain:

You want a horse to jump a tall fence, the method that tends to get used in your version is that if the horse fails to make the fence, the horse get's shot and a new horse is brought in. The idea is eventually you get a horse that can jump the fence!

It works, except for the following:
1. The horses coming in get to see what happens to the others that went before, and refuse to even come onto the field.
2. The horse that wins will eventually screw up and get himself shot. Law of averages.
3. You will NEVER, EVER have a happy horse.

Can you see where I'm getting at?
Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
09-24-2005 09:03
From: Foolish Frost
Amen to which opinion? Sorry, hard to tell with threads...


Unless quoted otherwise, I'm always replying to the original poster. :)
_____________________
Just remember, they only care about you when you're buying sims.
Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
09-24-2005 10:53
From: Foolish Frost
I think that is a word, an I've used it before.



No it isn't - the word is 'draconian'.
_____________________
1 2