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What does the Christian God want from us? |
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
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10-11-2005 09:53
Malachi's just pleased to introduce himself.... And you needn't even guess, my name is Malachi Constant, 'cept the Lindens wouldn't let me have it.  Incidentally, the name was stolen out of comtemporary literature, and I had quite forgotten that it was a four chapter, 55 line book in the bible when I picked it (in case you thought I had 2400 year old text in mind when I chose it). |
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Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
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10-11-2005 09:59
Rented a tent a tent a tent, rented a tent a tent
 _____________________
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. |
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Jsecure Hanks
Capitalist
Join date: 9 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,451
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10-11-2005 10:03
Rented a tent a tent a tent, rented a tent a tent And if I stamp on your tent... It's a very fine FLAT! Ha ha ha!  |
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
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10-11-2005 11:08
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Dark Korvin
Player in the RL game
Join date: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 769
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10-11-2005 12:29
The only one I get is #4. They provide tender loving care for them, and in some cases, eat them—or deliver them to be consumed. Makes you want to get on your knees and beg to be a sheep, doesn't it. Free will is our gift, it is up to us to do what we will, that includes questioning blind faith, as well as scrweing up ones life... you gotta *be the miracle* So don't blame God or religion when someone screws up, or does something bad. Blame the person(s) who actully did it. Try to forgive them.. but if is not possible, then try to go easy on 'em :x Er.. I'm going to go ... do soemthing that wont start a flame war now I appreciate your views of free will. The thing that was confusing me more is the fact that God will save me from sin, which I interpret the New Testament meaning that either in heaven or after armagedon I'm going to no longer sin. I want to know how a person still has the gift of free will after it has been made impossible for him to do sinful things. In other words, I don't want to die and end up a robot. I think you make a good point about not blaming the religion. I think even thousands or millions of insane people calling themselves Christian throughout history does not mean that the religion is flawed. It means that alot of flawed people have liked the title. I hate or love each person based on my personal experience with them, not on what beliefs they have. Your problem is you are confusing several Gods with each other. There is old Testament God, New Testament God, Jesus, etc. and all are different, comprising essentially different religions. The easiest example to point to is the fact that many of Jesus's sayings and beliefs directly conflict with the personality of "God" in the Old Testament, leaving one with the conclusion that the original "God" would not be a good candidate to be "saved" by Jesus and thus gain entry to his own "Heaven." IMO if the statements, rules, etc. of each of these religions did not conflict, then that would be unusual. I think you are on to something. I even get the impression that the God in Revelations does not quite fit the qualities of God in other parts of the Bible. Things can even get stranger when you are crazy like me and trying to keep track of what Mormons, Muslims, and Druze believe as well. God ends up having so many faces that it is hard to figure out which one is supposed to be the real face. My best guess is that the Jewish should be considered to be the more authoritative view of this one God, but then I get confused when I see how they changed from Sumeria. Religion is a tangled web. I have a theory that in the end it is all leads back to some unrecorded religion that worshiped serpents or dragons long before Sumeria was around. My guess now is that most new religions are going to involve more theories about entities or travel in outer space, while I think they will probably still base their roots off of everyone else's religions. Suprisingly I've already seen people post about that type of belief in another thread, and I'm not completely sure they are joking. This whole thead is reminding me of the "To Serve Man" episoide of the Twilight Zone... The Bible...  IT'S A COOKBOOK!Lol, that is why I see the Bible as one of the scariest books I've ever read. I know my view is supposed to be proof that I wasn't chosen by God, but from what I read; I feel strangely comforted by the idea that he didn't choose me. The Devil? Oh, I don't know, Kevn. I have a lot of Sympathy for Malachi. Malachi's just pleased to introduce himself, because he's a man of wealth and taste. He's been around Second Life a long, long time, and stole many noobie's soul and faith. He was around when Philip Linden had his moment of doubt and pain. And made damned sure that Prokofy washed his hands and sealed his fate. He's pleased to meet you, and hopes you guess his name. But what's puzzling you is the nature of his game, of course. He stuck around Ahern, until he saw it was a time for a change. AR'd the mentors and their syncophants, Chip Midnight screamed in vain. ( ) Malachi rode a tank and held a general's rank when Kathy Yamamoto's blitzkrieg raged, and all of Jessie stank. But he's just pleased to meet you, and hopes you guess his name. But what's puzzling you is the nature of his game, of course. He watched with glee while forum kings and queens fought for ten months for the drama they made. He shouted out, Who killed Burning Life this year! when after all, it was you and me.... So let Malachi please introduce himself; he's a man of wealth and taste. And he lays traps for forum troubadours who get iced before they reach their first birthday. He's pleased to meet you, and he hopes you've guessed his name.... I love that song! |
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Ananda Sandgrain
+0-
Join date: 16 May 2003
Posts: 1,951
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10-11-2005 12:29
Vonnegut is one of those authors I've been meaning to return to. I picked up The Sirens of Titan, Slaughterhouse Five, and Breakfast of Champions off my dad's bookshelf when I was about eight. I think I was still way too unsophisticated to grasp most of what was going on with them.
Zuzu, I don't place that reference. Actually it got me thinking of the Pirates of Penzance and those silly cops chanting "Tarantara... tarantara..." _____________________
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Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
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10-11-2005 14:17
The refrence was from Sirens of Titan
Perhaps I should have said "I was a victim of a series of accidents, as are we all" And dont worry JSecure, I took no offense because I am also a fan of bad puns. _____________________
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. |
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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10-11-2005 17:10
Mind you, I'm not a Christian, however I'll take some guesses at the intent behind these. All pure speculation on my part, of course.
>>1. God prefers blood sacrifice to grain sacrifice. He wanted the complete wipe out of the people in the promised land. He needed the blood of Jesus before he could forgive us. Does God want blood? I would suspect that death would be viewed differently from a perspective beyond life. Presuming a Christian view of existence beyond the physical, for a moment - loss of life would be a sacrifice but certainly not the ultimate one. Presuming one makes it to better pastures, it might be a sacrifice that truly lent some perspective on selflessness, the meaning of love, &c. Who would Jesus be had he *not* died? >>2. Forgiveness for sin was impossible until someone innocent died. "Daddy I made a bo-bo." "That is alright Dark, we will just kill little Jesus my son so that I can forgive you." "Thank you Daddy for spilling his blood so that I could live forever." Why does God need innocent blood? Mmm... subtle but important differences here - your most in-depth question. Presumably Jesus chose self sacrifice, rather than being killed from above. This is a very complex issue, addressing the differences between God/Jesus himself, &c. Does God need innocent blood? Hopefully not. However, in sacrifice and service, something else is inherently gained. Say you are faced with a choice between ten years of self-serving hedonism -vs- caring for your ailing mother. A weak analogy, but Christian values tend to ennoble those who excercise complex forms of free will. Any stone can roll downhill, but only a very special stone will fight its way uphill for greater purpose, and this would be a profound test of free will. Secondly - it is relevant for the sacrifice to be understood, otherwise the point of it would be lost - the spiritual point of it could not touch you. >>3. Jesus says "Love your enemies," yet God will destroy Satan in the end. God says "Do not kill," yet many other times he very clearly commands people to kill those that have been identified as evil. Does God want us to lovingly destroy the enemies we consider evil? God tells us not to 'kill', but I suspect the meaning is 'do not murder'. Note also that prior to Jesus, clearly the interaction between God and human was radically different. Why? I'm not sure. As for God destroying Satan - well, actions by his own hand seem to be outside of his commandments to humans. I suspect Satan is intricately tied into the concept of free will also. So does he want us to lovingly destroy our enemies? When it is absolutely necessary, and not murder... I suspect the answer is yes. >>4. Prophets and Jesus liked to compare God to a shepherd of the sheep(his flock). What do shepherds do with sheep? This would be an analogy that an omnipotent being might use when speaking to, well, a population of sheep herders. And perhaps yes, there is some purpose for humans beyond life, hopefully not perfectly analogous to the purpose of sheep beyond their lives. >>5. Sin is supposed to end when God completes his work in those that have had faith in his son. Can a person have free will when it becomes impossible to do things God does not like? There are an infinite range of choices to make daily - consider the simpler case of having free will and never doing anything that say, I didn't like. It's possible. Just guesses - again, I don't meet the qualifications for being a Christian apologist. I presume any set of beliefs might sound a bit odd, when posed thus. - "A big explosion of space-time out of nothingness, dissipating for no reason" - "A dream, until the sleeper awakes" - &c. I think we can all safely say, is that by whatever mechanism - God, Gods, a universal dream, or by emergent properties of dust - is that there *is* something spiritual in the universe. If only for the fact that we are here to discuss it, by whatever mechanism no matter how complex or trivial - then yes, we are ghosts in the machine. |
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Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
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10-11-2005 19:31
What this thread is lacking is a good song. Here's an appropriate one from Jamiroquai's new album, Dynamite. It would also work well on a political thread:
"World That He Wants" Why does this man Defy the storm and burn us all Each time his hand waves The sun it sets on lonely graves Haven't we read this page before We're gonna lose the war Put down the glory flag Nothing will be the same This is the world he wants Pray for the brave and the young It won't bring them back again Stillness you know that it reigns supreme And suffocates our only dream No birds can sing here They've flown away They didn't even say When they'd be back again Will they come back again Unleash the hounds of hell Whip up the fury wind Hidden inside his dome This is the world he wants Pray for the brave and the young He knows they're not coming home Now do you ever, ever get the feeling Ever get the feeling This is the world that he wants Do you ever get the feeling Ever get the feeling This is the world that he wants This is the world he wants This is the world he wants _____________________
"The mob requires regular doses of scandal, paranoia and dilemma to alleviate the boredom of a meaningless existence."
-Insane Ramblings, Anton LaVey |
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Dark Korvin
Player in the RL game
Join date: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 769
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10-11-2005 22:30
Mind you, I'm not a Christian, however I'll take some guesses at the intent behind these. All pure speculation on my part, of course. >>1. God prefers blood sacrifice to grain sacrifice. He wanted the complete wipe out of the people in the promised land. He needed the blood of Jesus before he could forgive us. Does God want blood? I would suspect that death would be viewed differently from a perspective beyond life. Presuming a Christian view of existence beyond the physical, for a moment - loss of life would be a sacrifice but certainly not the ultimate one. Presuming one makes it to better pastures, it might be a sacrifice that truly lent some perspective on selflessness, the meaning of love, &c. Who would Jesus be had he *not* died? >>2. Forgiveness for sin was impossible until someone innocent died. "Daddy I made a bo-bo." "That is alright Dark, we will just kill little Jesus my son so that I can forgive you." "Thank you Daddy for spilling his blood so that I could live forever." Why does God need innocent blood? Mmm... subtle but important differences here - your most in-depth question. Presumably Jesus chose self sacrifice, rather than being killed from above. This is a very complex issue, addressing the differences between God/Jesus himself, &c. Does God need innocent blood? Hopefully not. However, in sacrifice and service, something else is inherently gained. Say you are faced with a choice between ten years of self-serving hedonism -vs- caring for your ailing mother. A weak analogy, but Christian values tend to ennoble those who excercise complex forms of free will. Any stone can roll downhill, but only a very special stone will fight its way uphill for greater purpose, and this would be a profound test of free will. Secondly - it is relevant for the sacrifice to be understood, otherwise the point of it would be lost - the spiritual point of it could not touch you. >>3. Jesus says "Love your enemies," yet God will destroy Satan in the end. God says "Do not kill," yet many other times he very clearly commands people to kill those that have been identified as evil. Does God want us to lovingly destroy the enemies we consider evil? God tells us not to 'kill', but I suspect the meaning is 'do not murder'. Note also that prior to Jesus, clearly the interaction between God and human was radically different. Why? I'm not sure. As for God destroying Satan - well, actions by his own hand seem to be outside of his commandments to humans. I suspect Satan is intricately tied into the concept of free will also. So does he want us to lovingly destroy our enemies? When it is absolutely necessary, and not murder... I suspect the answer is yes. >>4. Prophets and Jesus liked to compare God to a shepherd of the sheep(his flock). What do shepherds do with sheep? This would be an analogy that an omnipotent being might use when speaking to, well, a population of sheep herders. And perhaps yes, there is some purpose for humans beyond life, hopefully not perfectly analogous to the purpose of sheep beyond their lives. >>5. Sin is supposed to end when God completes his work in those that have had faith in his son. Can a person have free will when it becomes impossible to do things God does not like? There are an infinite range of choices to make daily - consider the simpler case of having free will and never doing anything that say, I didn't like. It's possible. Just guesses - again, I don't meet the qualifications for being a Christian apologist. I presume any set of beliefs might sound a bit odd, when posed thus. - "A big explosion of space-time out of nothingness, dissipating for no reason" - "A dream, until the sleeper awakes" - &c. I think we can all safely say, is that by whatever mechanism - God, Gods, a universal dream, or by emergent properties of dust - is that there *is* something spiritual in the universe. If only for the fact that we are here to discuss it, by whatever mechanism no matter how complex or trivial - then yes, we are ghosts in the machine. Interesting responses. I realize that you are not Christian, but the biggest question I would have after hearing such a response is what defines murder. At first my thought was that war does not count as murder, but then I saw that God specifically commanded the Israelites to kill all women, childeren, and men in their war agaisnt those in the promised land. I began to wonder if killing the equivelant of civilians really regiesters as murder to God. The second problem comes when specific people are to be killed. There is a story in Numbers where God puts a plague on the people until someone gets the guts to spear a man and woman to the their bed while they are having sex. Apparently the woman wasn't Jewish. This pleased God enough to stop the plague. So it becomes very unclear to me what exactly good killing is, and what bad killing is. The problem is that the things I describe above, I would consider as murder. I guess there aren't many Christians on the threads. I was honestly hoping that someone could point out a great deal I've missed. It is odd that the most detailed response I've gotten is from a non-Christian. I agree that there is something spiritual in the universe. Thanks for the attempt to answer my questions. . |
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
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10-11-2005 23:18
Interesting responses. I realize that you are not Christian, but the biggest question I would have after hearing such a response is what defines murder. At first my thought was that war does not count as murder, but then I saw that God specifically commanded the Israelites to kill all women, childeren, and men in their war agaisnt those in the promised land. I began to wonder if killing the equivelant of civilians really regiesters as murder to God. The second problem comes when specific people are to be killed. There is a story in Numbers where God puts a plague on the people until someone gets the guts to spear a man and woman to the their bed while they are having sex. Apparently the woman wasn't Jewish. This pleased God enough to stop the plague. So it becomes very unclear to me what exactly good killing is, and what bad killing is. The problem is that the things I describe above, I would consider as murder. ~Ulrika~ _____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
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David Valentino
Nicely Wicked
Join date: 1 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,941
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10-12-2005 00:54
The refrence was from Sirens of Titan Perhaps I should have said "I was a victim of a series of accidents, as are we all" And dont worry JSecure, I took no offense because I am also a fan of bad puns. Kurt Vonnegut IS God (And "Sirens of Titan" is probably my favorite. Though "Slaughter House Five" and "Cat's Cradle" are extremely wonderful as well.) _____________________
David Lamoreaux
Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery |
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Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,905
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10-12-2005 01:04
God wants us to stop interpreting the Bible so frigging literally, and realize that language and allegory takes a toll on meaning.
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Hiro Pendragon
------------------ http://www.involve3d.com - Involve - Metaverse / Emerging Media Studio Visit my SL blog: http://secondtense.blogspot.com |
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Garnet Psaltery
Walking on the Moon
Join date: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 913
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10-12-2005 02:46
As a Catholic born and bred (but lately moved to an extremely simple faith) I'd like to be able to answer the questions directly. I find I can't. I have no interest any longer in dissecting the Bible, or any religious books really, though I certainly don't object to anyone else doing so.
My view is that people have always viewed their Creator through their own limited social and historical eyes, heavily assisted by unrecognised unconscious thought-patterns and emotions. That God exists is not a matter of belief for me but knowledge (cue Jung enthusiasts). And in any case, what Hiro said. _____________________
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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10-12-2005 03:23
As to the point of blood/death/sacrifice etc... From God's perspective, death is a passing from one reality to another, better reality. Death isn't a bad thing at all. In fact, living was Cain's punishment for killing Abel. If this is true then:- My question to God would be... why go to all the trouble creating a perfect world for an ungreatful lot of cry babies who are so evil they kill each other for any reason or no reason. one has to wonder why people who kill are regarded as evil. Surely they are just doing God's work? _____________________
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
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10-12-2005 06:19
If this is true then:- one has to wonder why people who kill are regarded as evil. Surely they are just doing God's work? To answer: If God creates life, He alone has the right to take it back, imho. Perhaps killing ends up saving lives that are part of the big plan. This is my thoughts on the matter, though I don't presume to speak for God. I'm a simple, 3-d being, stuck in time, with limited senses. |
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Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
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10-12-2005 07:56
1. All religions are inherently contradictory and require the suspension of logical analysis
2. Any attempt to persuade a religious persion using logic is percieved as an attack on faith 3. Therefore, attacking a religion using logic will cause it to grow If your goal is to dissuade people from belief in gods, be the nicest, kindest, most thoughtful, helpful and generous athiest you can. _____________________
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. |
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
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10-12-2005 08:55
What possible arguement could one use to logically explain away the notion of God?
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Blueman Steele
Registered User
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,038
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Maybe this will help
10-12-2005 09:06
When I'm curious about what God wants. I turn to Chick's Tracks.
This one may answer questions http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5004/5004_01.asp More can be found here http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp MMMM who wants some death cookie! |
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Daz Honey
Fine, Fine Artist
Join date: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 599
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10-12-2005 09:11
When I'm curious about what God wants. I turn to Chick's Tracks. This one may answer questions http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5004/5004_01.asp More can be found here http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp MMMM who wants some death cookie! _____________________
All children are artists. The problem is how to remain an artist once he grows up. - Pablo Picasso
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Blueman Steele
Registered User
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,038
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I'd never read that one
10-12-2005 09:15
oh god that Chick tract for the Native Americans is the worst peice of racist garbage I have ever seen, I'm surprised he hasn't been sued for hate speach, utterly embarasssing and disgracefull. Because of the instant migraines these cause I've never read many, but that one clears things up. He wants to bleed on us to wash away the crap that adam and eve rained on us. Or did I read that one wrong? http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1710/1710_01.asp |
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Daz Honey
Fine, Fine Artist
Join date: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 599
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10-12-2005 09:15
1. All religions are inherently contradictory and require the suspension of logical analysis 2. Any attempt to persuade a religious persion using logic is percieved as an attack on faith 3. Therefore, attacking a religion using logic will cause it to grow If your goal is to dissuade people from belief in gods, be the nicest, kindest, most thoughtful, helpful and generous athiest you can. _____________________
All children are artists. The problem is how to remain an artist once he grows up. - Pablo Picasso
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Blueman Steele
Registered User
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,038
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10-12-2005 09:17
If your goal is to dissuade people from belief in gods, be the nicest, kindest, most thoughtful, helpful and generous athiest you can. Yes m'lord.. I will obey |
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Daz Honey
Fine, Fine Artist
Join date: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 599
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10-12-2005 09:18
Because of the instant migraines these cause I've never read many, but that one clears things up. He wasn't to bleed on us to wash away the crap that adam and eve rained on us. Or did I read that one wrong? http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1710/1710_01.asp _____________________
All children are artists. The problem is how to remain an artist once he grows up. - Pablo Picasso
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Blueman Steele
Registered User
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,038
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What is murder
10-12-2005 09:19
but the biggest question I would have after hearing such a response is what defines murder. Murder is killing someone without their permission. If it's with their permission it's assisted suicide. If you get away with it, it's ok though. Or if they are a different color/religion.. then it's ok. |