What does the Christian God want from us?

Hey, who knew God's master plan would be revealed, in standard Off-Topic fashion, through song lyrics?

His plan is revealed in NoN's "Total War," from the album God & Beast:

Do you want total war
Turn man into a beast once more?
Do you want to rise and kill
To show the world an iron will?
Do you want total war
Throw out Christ and bring back Thor?
Do you want total war?
Do you want total war?
Do you want to stand and fight
To rip asunder this pallid night?
To smite your foes that they might die
To splatter blood across the sky?
Do you want might to prevail
To kick aside the weak and frail?
Do you want total war?
Do you want total war?
Do you want total war
To see life's will return once more?
Do you want total war?
Unleash the beast in man once more?
Do you want total war?
Do you want total war?
Yes you want total war
Yes you want total war
Total War! Total War!
War is eternal. War is universal
There is no beginning, and there is no peace
Nor could there ever be
Even if the beast man desired it so
For man is subject to the same law
Which governs all living things
And this law dictates
That every living thing maintained its existence
Exclusively by depriving other living things of theirs
So it has always been
And so it shall ever be
Man is a beast of prey
History proves that man is a beast of prey
The beast of prey conquers countries
Founds great realms through subjugation of other subjugations
Creates states and organizes civilizations
Exclusively to enjoy his booty in peace
Attack and defense, suffering and struggle
Victory and defeat, domination and servitude
All sealed with blood
This state is the entire history of the human race

I would like to address this further in this thread if I might (yes, I am stealing from an Ulrika thread).

As Kevn stated, not all Christians believe the same as to predestination. I do not think that God makes a choice for any of us. He allows us to make our own decisions. But, He is omnipresent and omnipotent. For Him to give a prophecy to a prophet is not a hard thing if He already knows the outcome. He knows what choices we will make in advance of our knowledge. That does not mean that He made that choice for us.

Christ did say that 'I chose you', but again, He knows what the outcome will be before hand were we do not. Not to mention that He may have chosen everyone. Did He not die for the sins of ALL humans?

Then you will have someone ask the question about Pharaoh and the hardening of his heart. Did God accelerate that choice, knowing what Pharaoh's choice would be in the end? It is a guess, but I believe it to be so.

To me, if we were predestined, would that not negate the whole idea of why we are here? Is it not for God to find out who loves Him and who loves his brother? I have thought at great lengths as to why humans are here, and the only thing I can come up with is a test of just that. If anyone else has ideas on this one, please share.

If we are predestined, does God give favor to such individuals?
1 Peter 1:17 (AMP)
17 And if you call upon Him as [your] Father Who judges each one impartially according to what he does, [then] you should conduct yourselves with true reverence throughout the time of your temporary residence [on the earth, whether long or short].

Acts 10:34-35 (AMP)
34 And Peter opened his mouth and said: Most certainly and thoroughly I now perceive and understand that God shows no partiality and is no respecter of persons,
35 But in every nation he who venerates and has a reverential fear for God, treating Him with worshipful obedience and living uprightly, is acceptable to Him and sure of being received and welcomed [by Him].

This being said, it is MY guess. It is what makes sense to ME. Please do not take this as a belittling of Kevn or anyone else who holds predestination to be true.

I'd love to hear that argument (without the Jesoid quotes though).

~Ulrika~

Can we have a separate forum for Bible quotes?

(Just read your response, Kurgan. Fair enough. More to say tomorrow.)

Fascinating topic, and I'm glad you brought it up.


Determinism is an odd thing. It creeps up in discussions of both religion and science, seems intimately tied to the concept of free will, the act of observation, and the nature of time itself by way of causality.

One of those concepts that seems so simple, yet could be the tip of a great iceberg. It is telling that one of the greatest breaches in scientific method has to do with determinism, specifically the Heisenberg's "Uncertainty" principle.

What this fellow did was note that he had great difficulty measuring the position and momentum of a subatomic particle at the same time - from this, he made the statement "They can Not be measured at the same time." And called it a principle.

I am shocked to say that even scientists who fully understand scientific method 'accept' this. The man simply gave up when he failed to understand why he couldn't make his measurement, and declared this *unanswered question* to be a principle of science. It defies scientific method utterly, and is called a principle to this very day.

While quite observable and reproducible, it's rather like saying you can't measure the weight of steam, because it dissipates from a weigh-scale. Perhaps, like steam, there is no mystery - it's just easier to do when the steam is cooled to the state of liquid water first.

Thus the quantum arguments for indeterminance may well fall into the "lack of evidence is not proof of the contrary" fallacy.

To this day, that's where mainstream science leaves off - a very sad thing regarding a question as fundamental as determinism - one of the precious few interfaces between physical phenomena and higher concepts, such as free will.



Anyway, I digress, and quite frankly I fear that the forum discussion broadly regarding religion and science has raised many people's hackles - something I would never seek to do, even inadvertently.

I may well bow out of all discussion until some semblance of peace returns, but I shall continue to read with intense fascination.

- Desmond Shang

-Ghoti

I am glad that you have added to the dialog Desmond.

I hope you do not back away because things become 'hot', unless you think that it is completely unproductive. I have backed away from threads in the past because the discussion would never go anywhere due to lack of maturity. But, if there is still intelligent discourse happening, I generally ignore the trolls.

Take for instance Ulrika... Even though she most certainly does troll, she does have some valuable and heart felt comments every now and then. Iron sharpens iron...

I am also still interested in what your thoughts are about my comments...

Well Ulrika, in simple terms, let us say that religion is beliefs that are scientifically unfounded.

I suppose, based on what I have seen of you in the forums, that you have some strong beliefs about what is right, what is just, what is important, and what matters. And it seems that science does not do such the good job of substantiating the "truth" or importance of these beliefs.

Science is not so good at determining what matters. Belief/Faith/Religion/Opinion is required for that. And you seem to be quite passionate (zealous?) about what matters to you.

Oh great. Now Haliburton will begin work on genetically engineered camels, making them smaller, or perhaps it would be easier to just build an enormous needle.

I know it doesn't solve the problem, but it does substantially lower the bar.

Can't you just see Dick Cheney at the Pearly Gates, describing the enormous needle and telling St. Peter to go F&%$ himself?

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23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
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I intend to become rich enough so that I can buy a gigantic needle.

If you had the money, wouldn't it be more fun to buy a really small camel as Barnes contemplated (not that you would have to buy Mr. Cheney's product)? Think about it, you would save on feeding, veterinary, and land usage costs. You would win all the way around, right?

Course, I am not sure that would have any bearing on you getting into the Kingdom of God...

Nah, I think it'd be easier to just buy a big needle.