Iran is right

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051214/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_holocaust



They can come live in Canada! Someone just needs to buy up land for them, I guess. I'd pitch in a few bucks. I do love Jewish people

Anyways, really though, how is this fair to the palestinians? They didn't kill all those people. Actually, neither did Americans or Canadians for that matter.

Shouldn't it be the germans that pay?

BTW, the whole "Holocaust is a myth" thing was odd and kind of messes up his message. But, who knows, maybe the press would have ignored him unless he said something controversial.


Still, lets get serious. The reason they're threatening us with terrorism is because we're invading their lands. This should be totally fucking obvious to everyone. Finally, someone is clever enough to come up with a message that makes this clear.

Interesting stuff from wikipedia:





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan

http://www.passia.org/images/pal_facts_MAPS/dist_of_pop_jews_and_palestinians_1946.gif

Coming up next in the blazetroll series!
"Hitler was just misunderstood! "
"Osama Bin Laden - what a kidder! "
"Great leaders of the 21st century: George W. Bush"

Here we go,

1947 before UN partition plan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Map_of_Jewish_settlements_in_Palestine_in_1947.png


1947 after UN partition plan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png


1949 (after arab-israel war / armistice agreement)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1947-UN-Partition-Plan-1949-Armistice-Comparison.png

It's interesting how the victors write history.

By all accounts, this was an invasion by jewish people of the palestinian territory.

Honestly, I have no muslim friends and many Jewish friends. I once thought of converting to judaism myself and even had a jewish girlfriend.

On the flip side, most Iranians I know I find annoying.

All that being said - the evidence is strikingly clear. Israel invaded palestine, and we (Canada probably lead the vote) fully supported this invasion plan with the UN agreement of 1947.

Only 6.5% of Palestine was owned by the jewish people, but we gave them 55%

I think this applies to most leaders that the world has ever had. It seems for every good leader we get, we get 100 bad ones. Which speaks for the quality of the good ones if they can undo the damage of 100 bad leaders. But George W. Bush what a fu(|<1n9 joke. You can almost see the strings.

As for the whole Palestine thing. Ya the international stance should be fuc|< it. Let them handle their own problems.. Their perfectly capable of killing each other without our help. We shouldent have gotten involved in the first place. Now I understand the fact that we need to fix our own problems... but ya we suck at that. So the best thing to do is simply leave it alone.

Few people know this but the UN felt justified in screwing over the Palastinians since they were allies of the Nazi's during WWII. In fact Egypt and Iraq were openly allied with Hitler and most other arab nations were at least sympathetic with germany. Palestinian Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini openly encouraged Muslims to join Nazi units that would be later implicated in genocide and crimes against humanity - the infamous Hanjar (or Handschar) 13th Waffen SS division. Husseini was also implicated in participating in devising the "final solution" and was often a guest of Hitler in Berlin. This is the same Husseini who was related to Yasser Arrafat and served as his mentor. The Palestinians were not the innocent victims so often portrayed.

blaze, you were on such a good streak... and then you side with IRAN.

WTF is wrong with you for siding with a country declaring that "The Holocaust did not happen" and that "Israel should be wiped from the map"?

This totally ignores the fact that Palestine and Jerusalem were very thinly populated during Ottoman and British Mandate rule, and were in reality pretty evenly populated by Christians, Moslems and Jews at the time, and that it was the British administrators who
brought in many settlers from Egypt and Trans-Jordan during the 1920's and 30's in order to balance the increasing number of Jewish settlements.
The idea of a Palestinian state is as much a modern creation as the idea of an Israeli state. Giving it back makes about as much sense as giving half of Canada back to France.

y'all need to read a history book or two.

This saga begins way before WWII. It actually begins before WWI with the Ottoman empire who pretty much owned Palestine and, well, the rest of the middle east. Palestinians were subsistence farmers -- doing nothing iwth the land. The Ottoman empire ignored the land because everyone and their mother thought it was a worthless scrap of dirt. And when I say the land, I mean pretty much the entirety of the middle east.

After WW1 with the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, Britain and France carved up the middle east. Iraq was not a country before this. Neither was Saudi Arabia and half a dozen other countries over there. Egypt was there, I think, and Jordan -- maybe Syria. I think the rest were not.

Now we have to flash back to the victorian era. Herzl founded the World Zionist Organization in 1897. At that time, Jews were being treated rather shabbily in Europe. This trend continued right up to WW2. So its not surprising that a fair amount of jewish people wanted a jewish state. Pretty much the WZO was convinced that the only way Jewish folk were going to be safe was if they founded a Jewish state run by Jewish people. Not a bad assumption given the way things were. So some Zionists went to Palestine because no one else, other than some subsistence farmers, wanted the land. At that time, and largely because of the hard work of the Zionists, Palestine enjoyed a rennaissance of sorts.

Now the Palestinians had always regarded themselves as, well, Palestinians. Not members of the Ottoman empire. The Ottoman Empire didn't take kindly to this. With the influx of the Zionists, funded by rich folks who either wanted rid of the jews or wanted to help the jews but really their motives are unimportant, the Ottoman's saw their chance to conquer and divide. Thus, the Ottoman officials saw the influx of Jews as an opportunity to keep the Palestinians in check. By playing both groups off of each other, the Ottomans hoped to strike a balance whereby each group would want the Ottomans around to save them from the other. Unfortunately, they simply ended up enflaming Palestinian fears of the Jewish immigration to the point where acts of violence against the Jews began to break out. Eventually, the Ottomans forbade Jews from buying land in Palestine in order to keep things at least somewhat calm. Of course, given the corruption of the Empire, such a banning was little more than “We’re upping the price to bribe us.”

Then around 1910 or so was the first Balkan War in which the Ottoman Empire got its ass kicked by Greece and a few other nations whose identity escapes me at the moment. Then 1914 and WW1 happens. Now we are back to where we started. So WW1 happens. Lawrence of Arabia happens. Britian and France go to war in the middle east and kick the Ottoman Empire's ass so thoroughly that it disappears. Now Britain and France own the middle east. The House of Saud gets the desert and Saudi Arabia becomes an actual nation. France makes a few nations. Britain makes a few nations. AT THIS TIME BRITAIN OWNS PALESTINE! This is important.

The next thing that happens (and I'm whipping through history like its no tomorrow) is the Balfour Declaration. The Balfour Declaration pretty much states that Britain will make a Jewish Homeland for Jewish people in Palestine. This was published in pretty much every major newspaper in 1917:

“His Majesty's Government views with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”

Well as we all know, the British didn't exactly achieve this goal. But lets be clear on one thing: The Jews didn't invade Palestine. Britian kind of did, but it belonged to the Ottoman Empire at the time. If you want to go back to who invaded -- the Ottoman Empire invaded. A long long time ago. At that point, the Palestinians were the losers and to the victors go the spoils.

If you don't agree with that, then please to be arguing with the same fevor that Scotland, Ireland and Wales all are separate nations from Britian, that the Acquaitaine belongs to England, that the majority of France belongs to Switzerland, England and Germany and so on and so forth. Oh and btw -- yeah. Iran? Formed in my lifetime. Before that it was Persia.

The Iranian PM is whacked.

Interesting words but the facts remain:



You can debate all you want about possible motivations, but the fact is, there was a significant incursion of Jewish settlers starting in 1922.

How do you go from 14% of the population and 6.5% ownership of the land to 55% ownership of land in just a couple of the decades?

That's invasion.

And sorry, I don't buy it that no one wanted the land. Why do you think there was all those palestinian / jewish conflicts? Because the palestines DIDN'T want the land?

And, yes, Iran *is* whacked, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong about this.

So you want all the Jews to go where, exactly? Curl up in a ball and die?

I think the Jewish people should work on an integration plan such that israel/palestine becomes one state where jews and muslims live together in peace.

That's what we'd do in Canada..

Yeah, live in peace with people who want you dead.

Tell you what. You strap a couple raw steaks to your ass and then walk into a kennel of pit bulls. Now try to live in peace with them.

Yes! Invasion is the key word. If the Arabs had not attacked Israel from day one and gotten their collective butts kicked each and every time, Israel would not have the land it has today.

And, what have the Arabs ever done for their Palestinian 'brothers'? Jordan is the true Palestinian homeland but Jordanians (and most other Arabs) want nothing to do with Palestinians other than to use them as cannon fodder in their eternal quest for the total destruction of Israel.

The only reason Palestinians have food in their tables is because Israel gives them jobs and the USA pumps in cash. Again, their Arab brothers do absolutely nothing for them! They should really be careful what they wish for.

Well, perhaps the Arabs attacked Israel because they saw a rapid build up of population?

You know, there is a program that if you're jewish you can get a free return plane ticket to Israel?

http://www.survey.aliyah.org/

Basically if you answer in the affirmative you pretty much get the free tickets.


Things that make you go hmmmmm.

Really. Would you go "hmmmm" if any other country offered incentives for qualified people to settle there? Because a lot of them do. Or, is this just another thing you single out Jews for?

Well, gee. I guess it would help to go back about 6,000 years in history, to a time when patriarch, Abraham, rejected his son Ishmael (father of the Arab race) -- the son of his servant -- after the birth of Isaac (father of the Israelites), Abraham's son by his beloved wife, Sarah. The land of Canaan has been in dispute, ever since. Modern-day Palestinians have no more (or less) basis for laying claim to this tiny strip of desert than do the Jews. I do agree, though, that peaceful co-existence is (barring a miracle) decades or centuries away.

Isn't it interesting that there are THIS many Muslim nations:



and just this one sliver of land for the Jews?



600 million Muslims have over 35 nations and substantial parts of many more, yet they want this one seemingly insignificant strip of desert.

P2

Then the Jews invaded British soil -- cause that's who owned Palestine then. And he is wrong about this. Unless he'd like to give Iran back to the Shah and his family? No I didn't think so.

blaze, while technically, I know you are right, is it really productive to throw this stuff out in the forum?

Those that know the facts and are likely to agree with you, are unlikely to publicly post about it, and most everyone else will just flame you to death. What's the point of that?

A nicer way to put it might be that Israel was established primarily by the actions of the Zionist movement and to point out that many high-profile Jewish leaders of the day were *anti-zionist* and strongly disagreed with the establishement of Israel, the most notable being a personal hero of mine, Albert Einstein.

see?

That way, you have one of the nicest and smartest men who ever lived on your side and you are not talking about "jews" you are talking about a small subset of radical (terrorists at tthe time) jewish people. It's political and religious, it's not about a "people."

I am paraphrasing of course but the way I remember it, Einsteins prediction was that the establishment of the Jewish homeland would cause no end of trouble for many many years to come, and that it might actually even destabilize the world on a global scale and lead us into nuclear war.

What a smart guy!

Heh, good point.

First life is not Second Life. You can't just stop the game and roll back to a point in time and start it over again. You gotta work with what you've already got. Blaze, even if your interpretation of history *is* correct, what's your solution from this point onward?

The entire artical sounded like little more than propaganda to justify for the Bush's next invasion plan. The most telling line in the whole thing was this:



So, true to form, the whitehouse takes something small but adequately distasteful (if it's even true in the first place) and then plants a seed for greater fear. I won't be suprised at all to se more and more stories like this pop up in the near future, and more and more language coming from Washington about how we should all be so afraid of the big bad Iranians until, BAM! We're suckered into yet another pointless war.

Yeah, it's interesting how we didn't get a reply to the building the nuclear station for Iran that Iran was proposing the americans do.

It's the one thing this administration seems to be really good at doing: hey, hey lookie here! Don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain. We're gonna change the subject quickly... 911! Terrorists! You're either with us or you're against us... etc.