Harp Seal Cull - So wrong in so many ways

Cows, pigs, and sheep are fairly cute, too.

Now, what do I want for lunch? A hamburger? A ham and swiss sandwich? Or should I have some of the leftover lamb from the other night?

Dianne, those of us defending the cull have pointed you to the webpage about the laws regarding the cull that point out you can't kill the unweaned pups. The reason for the law is to force people to wait until after the white coats fade and until -after- they leave their mothers. But I don't know at what age the pups leave their moms, so I'll look that up.

And yeah, if it's cheaper to use the seal meat to feed the dogs, thus freeing you from buying dog food and giving you more money to spend on your meals in other ways... why is that wrong? Does it really matter if the hunter eats the seal meat and the dogs eat beef, or if the hunter eats beef and the dogs eat seal. The same amount of meat is used either way. Oh! Yeah, that's right, it's only because -you- think seals are cute and cows are not.

I'm against poachers because they're wasteful and don't obey the limits of the Cull. Honestly, it doesn't make sense to kill a seal younger than a yearling from the legal hunter's point of view. The white coats are protected, and if you can only bag so many seals, you'd rather grab a big one that will allow you to sell more meat/fur. That's why I question this 97% stat you've popped out with, it's simply not logical.

Where did you get the 97% are 'toddlers' stat? Since you claim it's by an independent and unbiased source, you should have no problem posting the source for us to pick at. The page you've posted states the stat, but has no information about any kind of study or anything... it looks made up to me. And you can hardly consider a seal hunt protest page unbiased.

Seals eat COD. More seals mean more cod eaten. More cod eaten means less of a chance the fish will recover from the overfishing by -many- countries, not just Canada. Oh, I forgot though, the cod aren't cute enough to need protection. Who needs a -study- to prove this? One human makes pollution, many humans means more pollution. It's simple multiplication. I have one cat at home, if I buy another, I will have to buy twice the amount of cat food.

And pigs are quite intelligent.

Mean, too.

Although I understand the emotive aspect in ""don't kill the seals", what is the other option?
Let the seals continue to breed, to the point where their overpopulation dwindles the fish stocks, till the seals starve.
OK, we'll go for that, we can have baby seals slowly starving on the icefloes while the canadian fishing industry goes belly up.
That makes a lot more sense.

I'm more concerned about the hunting of an animal facing extinction-the Polar bear.

http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/marine_mammals_news/Hitting_polar_bears_when_they_are_down.html

Fcukers

In a previous post there was the idea that there was lack of predators to keep the seal population down. HUMANS have brought the polar bear to it's knees, along with global warming reducing their habitat, forcing them closer to humans (and I read the above web page posted by Lord Wishbringer... OMG truely tragic!!) The only problem is, Harp seals aren't a staple of the Polar bear, possibly due to current range, so the lack of bears may or may not reflect on the Harp seal numbers. (If the population of Polar bears was allowed to increase to abundant numbers, then there could be a significant swing in the range of their diet, but this is unlikely to ever happen, should the trophy hunters get their way). And what happened to the abundant killer whale pods that would play a big factor in keeping seal numbers down? This I am yet to research fully. I will do as I am genuinely interested, but I can guess for the most part it is human related.

And again with the cod... Harp seals also eat 120 OTHER species of fish, molluscs and crustaceans, including the snow crab (another big staple in the Canadian fishing industry)... there are 11 pockets of cod in the Atlantic and 2 are overfished. If I could remember the site URL for this last statement I would post it.

Again I found no info pertaining to the Harp seal being a significant distributor (if at all) of parasitic worms to fish, despite the seemingly improved population, tho I did find some reports of 'satellite tracked' younger than yearling, injured (namely by boats), therefore malnourished Harp seals (that were carried by the currents out of their usual range) washing ashore, and that were found to have worms. Some also had round, reddened patches of bacterial infections on their skin, caused by overexposure to pollution. They were vetted, wormed, fed and cared for, then released closer to 'home'.
The only reports I found on worm infestations in any seals name the Grey seal, which host upward of 4 different types.

I agree with everything that Dianne wrote in her last post.



Yes, it's about the money, pure human greed. Humans are just downright greedy. And no, I'm not anti human, but we as a species have alot to answer for, being, in our own minds, the most superior intellectually.



No need, I will give you the info again. Harp seals are born on the compact ice between February and April. Pups weigh 10-11kgs when born, as 'yellowcoats' and change to 'whitecoats' over a few days. Their mother feeds them on a highly rich formula, likened to very rich buttermilk, which will allow the pups to put on about 35kg, mass body weight approximately 47kg, before they are weaned at 12 days old. Their mothers leave the pups to mate again, feed, and join the rest of the herd to moult. The pup is left to fend for itself, and at 2 weeks begins to moult. By 3-4 weeks it has fully moulted it's whitecoat to the more blue and spotted coat. Then if it is lucky it will get to have a swim and taste it's first fish before it's head is bashed in or it's shot.

Yes, we have seen that page stating the rules and regulations of the 'hunt'... doesn't mean they are followed. Every government lies to it's voters, and to the public, to save face, and make money, and in this case, however little income the 'hunt' generates. Ever wondered why no reporters are allowed onto the ice to film and document the 'hunt'? Yes most, if not all, footage is from the welfare groups, and MAYBE some in the past have been falsified to get the point across, but much is legitimate. The footage may have been obtained illegally in the eyes of the so called law, but if reporters aren't allowed in, how else is the world meant to see what really goes on? Governments falsify evidence and information too. What are the government and/or the DFO trying to hide?
As I have stated already, the only information defending the 'hunt', that I could find, are from the Canadian government and the DFO, and the main argument seems to be 'the Harp seal population is too big and they are eating OUR cod'. And then there's production of Omega3. Cod are also used for that. Get some flaxseed or hemp seed!

When legislation is passed, should anyone ever be game enough to put it forward, that ALL Harp seals (and Hooded seals for that matter) under yearling age be protected and banned from the 'hunt', and 'hunters' learn how to wield their weapon of choice in a more accurate fashion, then I will "shut up".

I never said cows aren't cute, that is putting words in my mouth. I think all animals are cute and/or precious in their own right, even your perceived ugly ones like lobster, nasty ones, spiders, insects, and anything else you wish to say I think is not cute enough for protection or recognition. Every animal has it's place, as do humans, but if animals are exploited for not much more than their soft, pretty coats and feed for other animals such as dogs, not to mention farmed foxes (funnily enough for just their fur), I will kick up a stink about it. At least the cow I eat is fully utilized, right down to the bones. Ever eat jelly/jello?
Oh, and the bones (only raw bones) from the chicken I buy make my cat's teeth sparkle.

Yes, I agree with you Pol. I eat babies in 1st life!. I utilize their bodies fully. But if I was to catch somebody just using babies for their skin, then I would kick up a such huge stink about it that they'd even smell it on the moon!!.



Slaughter anything you like! But please, utilize it properly. Don't waste stuff!!


* runs for cover *

Good question. To the best of my knowledge, Canada has not permitted foreign fishers to catch Atlantic Cod within territorial waters for several years.

That is not to say that foreign trawlers don't fish the Grand Banks outside of our economic zones. There was an incident a few years back with Spain. In this instance, Canada siezed the vessels and it created an international incident. So, if anything. I think the Canadian government has taken proactive steps to protect cod stocks. The argument from the activists, is easy to say without adequate support. Afterall, we do know how inept governments can be from time to time. That said, it's also absurd to suggest that DFO permits every last seal to be sytematically eliminated. Stringent quotas are applied, based on scientific and biological analysis.

If the animal activists really want to work towards a worthy cause by protecting seals, then they should take the fight to the foreign trawlers first. If they can shut them down, it would be work well accomplished.

There are some watered down alternatives presented by animal rights activists.
It is important to know that animal rights activists are not environmentalists.

Environmentalists are concerned with SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT, not blindly hiding behind emotional issues.

Tourism has been suggested. This is unpractical. The seals for a short period of time are on the pack ice, literally hundreds, even thousands of miles from populated centers.

Dangerous and freezing conditions make for a poor playground. No less unviable from a transportation standpoint.

It's no secret that the roundworm, Phocanema decipens originates in the stomachs of marine mammals, mainly seals and in lesser incidences, in porpoises and dolphins. The source being fish. The feces of these mammals are eaten by tiny shrimps known as euphasiids. These crustaceans are then ingested by fish, and the larvae are released in the fish's stomachs, boring through the inner and outer linings and become encapsualted in either the entrails or flesh of the host.

It can be argued, that the extent harp seals have on parastical infection of cod species varies widely, but it can be easily inferred, that excessive populations of marine mammals are directly proportional to greater infestation in fishes. To my knowledge, there is no significant changes in the biomass of porpoises and dolphins, but an excessive proliferation of seals.

One seal on average eats 40 kilograms of fish per day, ingesting only the belly.

Economic factors drive industries. The Canadian Maritimes are in dire economic straits. Harvesting seals has been a tradition in these areas for literally hundreds of years. Collecting furs from seal pups, is a value added factor, and this precludes the rationale of harvesting skins from more mature animals.

I know it sounds cruel and sad, but its the better way of doing things. In reality, lets compare it to veal production. Veal calves are taken from the mother at birth, hoisted in straps and cages to restrict movement and discourage heavy muscle mass formation, kept in the dark and fed with feeding tubes. That is cruel and unusual punishment, but somehow is a widely accepted practice. Killing seal pups, is a much more humane method when compared to veal production. It's far from perfect, there is some sufferage on both mother and pup. Mother seals are traumatized all the time by death of pups, whether by, stillborn, excessive freezing, or predators. They live to give birth again.

Foreign fishers *are* allowed to fish in the same territories as the cod are fished by Canada, but for different species... doesn't stop them netting cod as bycatch tho, and either not declare it or throw it overboard.

While I still disagree with pups, whatever age, being a part of the 'hunt' and the 'hunt' itself, I do realize that they are probably a better money earner for their fur over the adult skins. But this is not acceptable. Fur trading has been on the decline for decades, and only recently had a resurgance in Europe and Asia. But as they say, wherever there is a market for something there will be someone greedy enough to fulfill it, and vice versa, someone vain enough to buy it.

Weedy, you say it may sounds cruel and sad, well it is, it doesn't just sound it. And I am quite happy to agree about veal farming. It's disgraceful!! So I don't eat veal. I also think the Pate` industry is just as revolting, forcefeeding geese and ducks til they all but burst, some choking on the food because there's just too much to digest. So I don't eat pate`. There are 1001 different things about farming, fishing, and hunting that I hate, but I have always loved seals, and not just the Harp seals. Hence my outrage. Maybe I let personal feelings get in the way, I admit to balling my eyes out when I first came across the URL I posted in my thread starter. It just made me so sad knowing that hunting them was back in such a big way, that alot of the seals would be so young, and alot would suffer greatly before dying or being put out of their misery, whatever their age.

I just hope that the government/DFO do regulate the 'hunt' for the future, if not abandon it, and fully prosecute anyone to the enth degree who defies the rules, and not just give them a slap on the wrist and seize their catch. The seal populations are supposed to number in the millions... let's see it stay that way.
I still don't agree with the 'hunt' at all, but with the increase in human population, and as other resources are depleted, I see there are benefits from the hunting of seals (yes I shock myself saying this). Like any hunting or fishing, as long as the strategy is thoroughly thought through before just jumping in and killing, to make sure it is humane by world standards and that the whole of the animal is utilized, to think of the long term impact it will make on the environment and maintain a steady balance in the symbiotic relationships of all species concerned, then Mother Earth can be very generous and yielding.

It is a shame that not all humans stop to think about the impact our own species has on the environment, and it has by far the greatest impact of any living creature. And, as we overpopulate the Earth, I wonder when the cull will start on us, or will we be left to our own devices to cannibalize each other when every other food source is gone or polluted?

I guess we can only agree to disagree where Harp seals are concerned.

This is a half-truth statement. Any foreign fishers, by law, while in territorial waters, must have a DFO evaluator aboard. This is a person who is a trained in biology and fishing regulations. This person oversees quotas, species and by-catch. The reason they don't throw it overboard is for obvious reasons......it's wasted. The evaluator imposes percentages with regard to bycatch and undersize etc. Once those quotas are met, fishing must cease or the vessel is require to move to other areas. It is the evaluator who reports the the government, not the vessel owner. So you see, the truth can be twisted around to give a wrong impression. I live on the west coast, and know several evaluators, and beleive me when I tell you, they impose strict rules on fishers during fishing operations.



Bolding mine. While this is not acceptable to you, it's acceptable to a broad market of harvesters, tanneries, manufacturers and retailers.



I agree with these points. You don't eat veal or pate. I am quite sure you don't wear seal skin. That in and of itself is a protest of the practice. A reasonable one at that. I have to honestly say, that I don't like the practice of killing seal pups either, but I am also not a victim of my emotions when it comes to biology and the socio-economic value of the real world either.



It's not a frontier free-for-all out there. DFO imposes strict quotas and monitors the fishery very closely. To suggest that seals have free reign is a death sentence to fish populations.



I agree, humane killing techniques and complete utilization are things which concern me too. I am not sure what the world demand is for seal meat these days, but I'm sure it's not very demanding. Perhaps pet food, or other forms of rendering should be examined, even imposed. In addition, our east coast residents are starving, economics opportunities are few and far between. It's not a fishery based on greed, no matter what the end user does.



Interesting point, and generally correct. It is often, the people who are least affected are the one's making the most noise. It's not fair to blame the fisherman, because afterall, they have the most to lose by mismanagement. People eat meat, because they are not forced to witness the slaughter. People wear diamonds, because they are not obligated to witness the abuses and civil wars of countries, which the miners created. The truth is, there is alot of indifference in the world with regard to many products. Just because something is "cute" does not change anything. Please don't get me wrong Poledra, it is not my intention to insult or belittle you, but your view is a bit narrow minded, despite your willingness to see the big picture. Surely you agree, it's about balance.

A wise native man told me something, after I killed my first deer. I was a bit traumatized by killing such a beautiful creature. He comforted me by saying "It was put there for you. Your sadness shows respect for the deer's spirit, which still lives".

Your sadness embodies the spirit of the seal, Poledra. You are gifted.

Are your teeth sparkly though?

Nolan, I cant find any pictures of Billy Mumy clubbing a seal. You having any luck?

Weedy, thanks for all your posts, and reading over them, no, I don't think you did insult or belittle me once It has been interesting, and enlightening in some areas I was less knowledgable, and have enjoyed the researching and the discussion, especially with someone like you, who obviously has the welfare of the planet at heart too. And for your last story and statement, Thankyou.

They never buy a round, they dance too close, and their breath smells of herring.

______________________
The assertion that the seals have no natural predators, or that they won't die off through other means, sounds like a load of rubbish.



Most species go through swells and culls based on climate fluctuations. If, one year, there is an explosion in predators because there is an explosion of herbivores because there is an explosion of flora because there is an unusual amount of rainfall or high temperatures, then you can bet the next year there will be an explosion of scavengers picking at an explosion of sick and dying animals. Life is meant to rise and fall in waves like the tide. The ecosystem doesn't need humans to make sure it is statically balanced exactly the same way every year; it just needs us to stop screwing with it.

The worst thing for an ecosystem, as shown in Yellowstone with the removal of native wolves (http://www.pbs.org/strangedays/aboutshow/), is to remove the apex predators completely. During a very, very long period of time in our history as a species, we felt the need to decrease the number of apex predators and step in to fill their role in order to increase our own numbers and ensure our survival. That time of necessity has passed. As modern humans, we already have the power to artificially replicate or mimic natural forces, preserve or create food sources largely removed from the impact of the external environment, and we have the power to remove a large part of our own influence from the natural world.

We're no longer at the level of development where we need to keep the apex predators down and fill their roles in order to survive. Perhaps we’ve kept the role so long now that we’ve started believing that we are necessary policemen of animal populations. But that isn’t the truth. Stop using that as an excuse to hunt. Hunting isn't necessary for the survival of the planet, all we need to do is back off and the planet will police itself. If our own population keeps exploding and we keep trying to fill the role of animals whose impact was far less than our own, then we'll eventually be facing our own culling as the system we’re abusing becomes unable to sustain us.

A few years of not having the market for seals will mean an explosion in their numbers which will later mean more food for the dwindling apex predators (Orcas, sharks, etc), which means they'll have more babies which means that after a few years they'll be competently performing the role they evolved to fill before we even existed and the ecosystem will police itself without us.

My final thought is to the activists:
Humans are a different kind of creature. What we desire most now is not food or fur but money and power. Instead of attacking the practice of hunting directly, why not attack the MARKET that sustains it? Redefine the cool. Redefine what is and is not acceptable. Without the market to sustain them, the hunters will dwindle and be forced to adapt to a new way of life. Without the market to sustain unsustainable or undesirable systems, it will become profitable to spend more money on systems that are. Research the uses of seal parts and research comparable and cost-efficient alternatives; find a way to demonstrate to the people with the power to profit from such research that there is a market for these alternative resources.

Banging your head against people’s way of life directly only encourages people to be more stubborn towards change.

After the point that hunting is no longer seen as viable or acceptable, hunting will be performed on a much smaller scale by people who have chosen that lifestyle, and their impact will be far less since they’ll be hunting for their own benefit.

As a side note: I don’t have a problem with killing. Everything dies. What I do have a problem with is the reasons behind it, and the irresponsible way we alter or invent systems to accomplish it.

*huggs Chance* Yesss!! Exactly.

The following address is about research into the structure of whalesong its multistructural and very complex just like human speach and if that does'nt make people who eat whale hurl their cookies i don't know what will.
Because we dont understand what they say does not make them dumb annimals just us being dumb humans
this applys to Fluffy white ones also.



http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20060320/whalesong_ani.html

T-shirt hell rocks man.

Oh yeah, and stop clubbing seals. Or at least use a gun you bastards.

You know what makes it really hard to take Seal Cull protesters seriously? Misinformation (if you lie or unwittingly give false information, I'm likely to not believe the rest of your speech) and really, really stupid quotes.

Stupid quote:

Dude... CHINA?!... talk about a lack of perspective...

Eating Seals = Communism with vast, long standing history of human rights violations and cruelties

Morrissey isn't coming around? Aww shucks.

There's gonna be a lot of dissapointed 12 year old boys!