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Bush lawyer argues that Americans have consented to monitoring

Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
05-16-2006 14:25
From: Cindy Claveau
The roots of terrorism actually lie in the primitive, superstitious ignorance that pervades the Arab world (thanks in large part to their own totalitarian leaders).


I don't at all disagree with your characterization of radical Islam, but here's where I diverge and why I think the middle east domino theory is hopeless idealism... it's predecated on the belief of American moral and cultural superiority. It's easy to sell American's on the idea that the American way of life should be our chief export. We've been raised on a steady diet of nationalistic propaganda for our entire lives. The problem is that mentality itself is a kind of religious fundamentalism. Democracy is great and all but look at it from the rest of the world's perspective. How are we so different than fundamentalist Islam? We're both claiming that ours is "the way" and woe to those that oppose it. It's painfully ironic that we're so willing to give up even a pretense of privacy and take such a wild swing back towards 50's style McCarthyism in the name of promoting freedom and democracy (or cramming it down people's throats as the rest of the world is more likely to see it). It's a bit oxymoronic don't you think?

Neo-con may have become a buzzword, but that philosophical movement underlies this belief that we should use our power to force the rest of the world to "see the light." Our invasion of Iraq, the changes Rumsfeld has made to the military, and even the opportunist possibilities of a cataclysmic event like 9-11 are all laid out in the PNAC's "Rebuilding America's Defenses" position paper. This isn't just crazy leftist conspiracy theory. The principal authors of that paper went on to form the core of the Bush administration.

Of course fundamentalist Islam needs to be dealt with and we need to learn from 9-11 but does that mean swallowing the whole pill? How much are we swayed by our own fundamentalism? How much are we willing to sacrifice in its name? We need a debate about a hell of a lot more than the best way to keep some maniac from crashing a plane into a building. We need to deeply examine our motives. As tragic as 9-11 was and as successful as Al Qaeda has been at poking the hornets nest I simply can't see either as adequate justification for swallowing a new philsophy and everything that comes with it.
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Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
05-16-2006 14:38
Ok, Chip, that was easier on the eyeballs, so I'll touch on a couple more points :)

From: Chip Midnight
I don't at all disagree with your characterization of radical Islam, but here's where I diverge and why I think the middle east domino theory is hopeless idealism... it's predecated on the belief of American moral and cultural superiority.

There are probably those who see it that way. Personally, I think it's more a matter of the superiority of open societies over closed, totalitarian ones. Democracy comes in many flavors and the Iraqi version is not going to be Jeffersonian necessarily, but if it works who cares? Fact: Democracies do not tend to attack each other.

From: someone
It's easy to sell American's on the idea that the American way of life should be our chief export. We've been raised on a steady diet of nationalistic propaganda for our entire lives. The problem is that mentality itself is a kind of religious fundamentalism. Democracy is great and all but look at it from the rest of the world's perspective. How are we so different than fundamentalist Islam?

For starters, we don't strap bombs to our children and send them to crowded malls. We don't arbitrarily kidnap innocent civilians and behead them on TV, nor do we line women up in soccer stadiums and shoot them in the head for daring to speak to strange men in public. We also aren't calling for the utter annihilation of Israel (or any other nation or race).

Just for starters.

From: someone
We're both claiming that ours is "the way" and woe to those that oppose it. It's painfully ironic that we're so willing to give up even a pretense of privacy and take such a wild swing back towards 50's style McCarthyism in the name of promoting freedom and democracy (or cramming it down people's throats as the rest of the world is more likely to see it). It's a bit oxymoronic don't you think?

It would be, except I don't see us giving up the pretense of privacy. I still have mine, don't you?
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Nyoko Salome
kittytailmeowmeow
Join date: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378
05-16-2006 18:24
From: Cindy Claveau
It would be, except I don't see us giving up the pretense of privacy. I still have mine, don't you?


ohhh you most certainly still have your -pretense- of privacy on. worn with a thousand sparkling, glittering wanna-be jewels.

but those, my dear, are -my- rights you are so blithely giving away.

via http://americablog.blogspot.com/:
"
Who does the NSA get to spy on when Hillary becomes president?
by John in DC - 5/16/2006 09:08:00 PM

Since the Republicans are so gung-ho in favor of domestic spying, I thought it might be interesting to see who's on the short list for being spied on by the government when Hillary becomes president. Keep in mind that by that point Arlen Specter will have already passed a law saying that it's okay for the president to spy on Americans whenever and however he or she likes - in the name of national security, of course.

For starters:

1. Anybody who owns a gun, starting with Wayne LaPierre of the NRA and Larry Pratt of Gun Owners of America.

2. All Republican members of Congress.

3. George Bush, Dick Cheney and Karl Rove.

4. Ann Coulter.

5. Gary Bauer, James Dobson, Lou Sheldon, and the men at the Concerned Women for America.

6. The entire staff of the Washington Times and the Wall Street Journal.

7. Anyone and everyone affiliated with FOX News.

8. Evangelical Christians (at least the bad ones).
"

via http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/5/16/194324/608:
More Americans Want Bush Impeached Than Did Clinton....BY FAR
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Bounder Jimenez
programmer/designer
Join date: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 45
05-16-2006 18:36
LOL..... the media making up stories again!

All the phone companies are dening that they ever gave any domestic records.
Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-16-2006 19:06
From: Bounder Jimenez
LOL..... the media making up stories again!

All the phone companies are dening that they ever gave any domestic records.


just to add some information to this statement:

i've heard from at least two "experts" on radio or cable news that the telecoms are bound by some regulation to NOT admit that they have been approached by the NSA or if they have cooperated with the NSA (they are not allowed to talk about it). I know this opens the debate to even more mistrust of the NSA program, but I offer the information because I AM reasonable and I believe that I SHOULD contribute all relevent information that I am aware of.
Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
05-16-2006 19:22
From: Cindy Claveau
For starters, we don't strap bombs to our children and send them to crowded malls. We don't arbitrarily kidnap innocent civilians and behead them on TV, nor do we line women up in soccer stadiums and shoot them in the head for daring to speak to strange men in public. We also aren't calling for the utter annihilation of Israel (or any other nation or race).



We just call them our allies.

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