Bush lawyer argues that Americans have consented to monitoring

Dismiss me all you want, Champie. The Truth doesn't just dissappear because you plop your head in the sand.

About Congress as oversight...

Randy "Duke" Cunningham

Tom Delay

William Jefferson

Bob Ney

Any Kennedy on the planet, pick one.

Jim Moran

That's just the tip of the iceberg. There is only so much corruption that can be silenced. Do you really want criminals like this with the ultimate control over your liberty?

Once we had constitutional rights that could override people like this - now, I'm not so sure we do.

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Human rights are being denied.
look at Guantanamo.
Your blindness is laughable

we no longer do, and it's going to get far worse before the people rise up.

I'm asking if it's reasonable to call out "HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION" and "HOLOCAUST"

Those terms seem a bit inflamatory and not very useful for a reasonable discussion.

I apologize for my dismissive attitude.

You arouse my curiosity...

What constitutional rights did we once have, that we no longer have, that would allow us to override corrupt governement officials?

so, where's the HOLOCAUST?

We no longer have the Fourth Amendment. Der.

I can have no reasonable discussion with you while your head is in the sand.

They have our numbers which they can tie into ALL our personal information --courtesy of Choicepoint.

Halliburton is even now building the camps.

Did you think Hitler just popped into his role of Chancellor and the very next day they were burning Jews?

If it happens -- it will because of people like you.

Under the current climate where the Administration and intelligence agencies are allowed to deny information to the body that's responsible for oversight then it won't matter how honest, forthright, or motivated the congress is. They won't be able to do their jobs or protect our rights.



To a large degree it's the fault of our entire system where fear and sensationalism are used to manipulate voter sentiment. We can't help but get corrupt leaders. No one else can get elected. And while I agree that both parties leave much to be desired, here's an interesting statistic... by this time in the Clinton presidency congress had issued something close to 500 subpoenas to administration officials. So far this Republican dominated congress has issued less than half a dozen! Whitewater and travelgate seem like highschool shennanigans compared to an illegal war, secret prisons, torture, domestic spying, defense contractor payoffs, and on and on and on.



In this context it is a rhetorical question because there's no way that the NSA not having the right to rifle through my personal life without a warrant would in any way put the lives of government employees at risk. The one thing that's happened recently that did actually put undercover operatives at risk was done by the administration itself when it outed Valerie Plame. I predict Rove will be indicted any day for it. A manufactured, unwinnable, nebulous, dishonest war without end can't be used as an excuse to abandon the constitution. That three out of four Americans seem to think domestic spying is A-OK just goes to show how effective our fear mongering press is at manipulating public opinion at the expense of our liberties. We need to tear the lid off all of it and clean house.

So well stated Chip that you should work for the Washington Post!

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somebody should.

let me see...

I'm looking for the part where the FOURTH Amendment provides citizens a mechanism to impeach, vote-out, or in some other manner take control from corrupt officials.

Don't waste your energy. Use it on people who won't be caught standing around in the aftermath saying, "We didn't think.." and "We didn't realize...". All because they were too busy trying to be "right" at the corner bar, trying to convince their neighbors with semantics and red herrings that the smoke on the horizon was "just a grass fire", instead of investigating and demanding accountabilty, adherence to THE LAW, and putting aside blind nationalistic loyalty.

Well you haven't done anything much about those who've been active over the last five or six years, have you?

WTF? when did I say it did?

are you drunk?

try this post

here is the full interaction:

I'm not the one claiming that I've had constituional rights taken away. If you feel that you have been denied your rights then YOU do something about it. Why you looking at me to carry your agenda? I'm an idiot with my head in the sand, what do you expect from me?

Exactly --they've taken away the fourth amendment --do you think they will stop there?
Christ, you're obtuse.

Not a great deal.

Well for a start, I don't even live in the USA... and you are surely aware that the word "you" is both the second singular and second plural. I have been denied various rights by my own government over recent years (like the right not to be deported to the USA merely on your Attourney General's say-so), and that is certainly something that influences my voting choices. Living in an essentially two-party state, though, it will be very hard to get a decent government until PR is introduced.

As for what I expect from you, well a typically Americocentric response, such as the one you gave, I suppose.

But the FOURTH Amendment has nothing to do with a citizen's right to petition the government. That's what you and Rose were saying...a time when you could do something about you grievance of corrupt officials. Right?

It's the FIRST AMENDMENT that gives you that right. Are you suggesting the FIRST Amendment has been taken from us as well?

oh shit..that's funny!

Are you suggesting PR = Parlimentary Rule for the United States?

if so, I'll let others determine how worthwhile your input really is.

I have to wonder if the terrorists of 9/11 ever even dreamed they'd be this successful.