Marines killed Iraqi women and children in cold blood

The Pentagon has concluded its investigation into the shooting deaths of civilians in the Iraqi city of Haditha at the hands of US Marines. On Wednesday, Democratic Congressmember John Murtha of Pennsylvania said the probe will show that Marines: "killed innocent civilians in cold blood.” Iraqis say 15 villagers were killed after US troops herded them into one room of a house near the city of Balad. The dead included five children and four women and ranged in age from 6 months to 75 years old.

The Pentagon initially claimed the civilians had died in a roadside bombing. But Murtha said: "There was no firefight. There was no improvised explosive device that killed those innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them. And they killed innocent civilians in cold blood. That is what the report is going to tell."

Thank God that monster, Sadam, is history.

There are a lot of other questions to be answered. How long have those Marines been there, what kind of things have they seen or done. Being in a war zone does bad things to a persons way of thinking. Now keep in mind, I'm not excusing them for what they have done, but before somebody says "in cold blood" you need to find out what the mental state of these Marines was at the time, and what it is now.

When 16 year old Shidane Arone was captured in Somalia by the Canadian Airborne Regiment, he was trying to loot food from the base. Soliders bound, photographed and then beat him to death. A medical officer in the unit made this known to the outside world. That's 1 civilian death.

There was a 300+ day Royal commission that interviewed on the hotseat every swinging dick from privates up to the head of the military and the defence minister. The soliders involved got:

a)Immediately kicked out of the military, if they had any involvement whatsover.
b)Soldiers did serious jail time. There is no death penalty in Canada. The guilty should have faced firing squad.
c)The *ENTIRE CANADIAN AIRBORNE WAS DISBANDED IN DISGRACE*. The regiment no longer exists. This would be like saying to the 82nd and 101st. "You are a disgrace to this nation and we no longer recognize you or your service." WWII vets were quite upset.
d)I believe both the head of the armed forces and the defence minister ended up resigning or were forced out. E.g. Rummy and Peter Pace would take the fall.

-It is true that the brass still got away with most of it and the grunts took most of the blame.

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So court-martial them all and have the guilty triggermen face a firing squad.
They would have had less negative impact on the war if they had shot 15 of their own generals. Seriously. How do you think this looks in Islamabad, Tehran, Damascus or Riyadh? How does it look on the streets of Baghdad, to Al-Sadr's Mahdi army? Those marines just recruited 50,000 new insurgents.

Also, people might actually want to...oh i don't know...actually read the report itself instead of let someone tell them what it says or what "the probe will show." Apparently the jioint NCIS/Multi-National Forces investigation is still ongoing.

Now dare you insist that people use actual facts instead of rampant speculation fueled by personal biases!

(If my tongue was any more firmly planted in cheek, it'd be sticking out the other side. )

Sorry...it was a moment of weakness.... I've turned down the dial on my Expectation-O-Meter a notch, that should help for a while.

The soldiers responsible for Abu-Grahib basically got off with a slap on the wrist.
It wouldn't work like that in Canada. I say that as someone who is a US citizen. If you are an elite soldier in a volunteer professional army and you are found guilty of mass murder of civilians (including infants) in cold blood during wartime, you should face the firing squad. It really is that simple and I would expect most Marines would agree with me. The Corps lost some luster last week. Slapping these guys on the wrist would tarnish the Corps permanently.

Insane marines are dangerous, e.g. Lee Harvey Oswald. These guys probably should have been battle fatigue/PTSD casualties. You can blame the NCOs and Lieutenants for not getting these guys off the line. No excuses.

So we'll wait to hear the findings. BTW the fact that this happened 6 months ago, and was covered up as an IED, is a scandal unto itself. The investigation, verdicts and possbile sentences should have been carried out already.

The only way to politcally mitigate this disastre is to have the families present at an execution and have Al-Jazeera interview them right afterwards to let the Islamic world know that it really happened. We all know that won't happen, so the damage is done. Score one propaganda win for Al-Zarquawi. It sucks any way you slice it, even if all Marines are found not guilty.

Yes...6 months ago...thats approximately 180 days. You yourself said Canada took 300 days to find out if a some airborne troopers beat to death a prisoner in their custody. Perhaps you might give the investigators another 120 days before you say they're taking to long and covering up the truth. There'll be plenty of time for you to say they're covering up the truth after the investigation is done and the results are published. Pace yourself.



Yes, by all means, lets get this silly investigation nonsense out of the way so we can move on to the execution. Look I realize you made up your mind on this issue even before the events actually happened but you might be a bit more...subtle.

I can't believe what some of you are saying. Unless you've been in their situation, you can't really even begin to imagine what was going through their heads when they shot those people. Don't forget that insurgents come in all ages, and both sexes. So if you're over there, and a 12 y/o is shooting at you, you aren't going to shoot back? These men and women of ours are seeing horrendous things, dealing with extreme stress and you are out to execute them for what they did? Why don't you let the officials finish up the investigation before you gather up your lynch mob, huh?

Good idea. Especially when your head is up your ass

The royal commission took 300 days. That's because every member of the armed forces and including the defence minister was on trial in the court of public opinion. Hundreds were interivewed in government hearings. The actual court martial for those involved was much quicker although like both US situations, it was covered up for a while.

If a twelve year old fires at you, and by the ROE you can fire back, fire back.
Explain any possible justification for shooting a 6 month old.

Yes if found guilty of illegal killings, execute them or imprison them for life. Ours is a country of laws. Here is the Uniform Code of Military Justice:

Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)
ART. 118. MURDER

Any person subject to this chapter whom without justification or excuse, unlawfully kills a human being, when he--

(1) has a premeditated design to kill;

(2) intends to kill or inflict great bodily harm;

(3) is engaged in an act which is inherently dangerous to others and evinces a wanton disregard of human life; or

(4) is engaged in the perpetration or attempted perpetration of burglary, sodomy, rape, robbery, or aggravated arson;

is guilty of murder, and shall suffer such punishment as a court-martial may direct, except that if found guilty under clause (1) or (4), he shall suffer death or imprisonment for life as a court-martial may direct.

This sort of thing is one of the horrors of War that always happens, on every side. It happened in WWI, it happened in WWII, it happened in Korea, it happened in Vietnam. It will happen in future wars.

I don't think, even for an instant, that these young men are monsters. Frankly I don't even think they are criminals per sey. They are more like victims of circumstance than anything else.

You have a group of young men full of testosterone (which promotes aggressive behavior) who have been trained to respond to situations with EXTREME violence (standard military doctrine is “overwhelming force”). You put them in a situation that is extremely stressful, where they literally have no idea if the next breath they take will be their last. A situation where death is something they see everyday (which has been shown to desensitize people). Then you deprive them of sleep and send them out on their own.

This kind of thing happens. It's horrible and is something we should try to control as much as possible, but it's going to happen in war time. This has nothing to do with the political situation of the current conflict. It's just the nature of War, and one of the reasons we should avoid war if at all possible.

I certainly hope that our Senators and Congressman don't try to use this event for political purposes.

Key word...IF. From your posts you've been taking the position that you know the facts from the investigation (a good trick since it hasn't published it's report yet) and have determined that they are already guilty and be should have been punished already, specifically...




IF the investigation shows they are guilty of a violating the Uniform Code ONLY THEN do I believe they should be found guilty and punsihed. Their punishment should be in keeping with what is defined by law, taking into account any mitigating circumstances that may apply under the Articles.

However until such time, since ours is a country of laws as you point out, we should follow the established principle that they are innocent until proven guilty.

And again I stress this...before people get all exercised with Moral Outrage(tm)...I think they should at least expend the minimum effort of A) Waiting for the investigation to complete and B) Reading the report for themselves instead of just parroting what someone else tells them it says...or in this case what someone not part of the investigation says the report will say when it is finally written and released.

May God help us all and forgive us.

I never said killing a 6 month old was right, read my first post. Have you been in a combat zone for several months? You don't know their frame of mind, do you? All I am saying is that before you condemn these Marines, let the military finish their investigation. Have these men (and possibly women) mentally evaluated. We have men and women coming back from war with PTSD, they see people with guns in ditches, they are always on watch for danger, under extreme amounts of stress, not being able to show any emotion. Now put these people back in combat and wait to see how long it will be before they snap.

Well, of course they are innocent until proven guilty. I certainly don't know the facts and never implied otherwise. I never said or implied anything different. What I am saying is that I'd like to see military justice as it is on the books. From a propaganda standpoint, we'll have new insurgent recruits because of this no matter what happens, and from that point of view, it's a propaganda loss for the coalition.

BTW yes, bad things happen in wartime. For example 3 Canadian soldiers were killed in Afghanistan when a US Air National Guardsman dropped bombs on them despite being briefed that they were there on exercise. He got "administrative leave". There's another good example of the sentence fitting the crime, huh?

I'm sure for every mass killing reported, ten go unreported. In WWII soldiers got shot on site for retreating or not following orders, even in the US army. My point here, is that if found guilty, they should have the book thrown at them in order to make an example. The US military has really taken a beating worldwide because of Abu-Grahib and situations like this. If the US wants to win hearts and minds of allies and the Islamic world, the military needs to raise the standards of its conduct.

You don't see this type of endemic problem with the other nations deployed in theatre. Why do you think that is? My personal belief is that the US military is soft on war crime.

These are not doped up drafted Vietnam conscripts and they are not weekend warrior guardsmen. Marines are the elite professional forces of the US military. The best of the best. The devildogs. And if you have a rabid devildog, you should put it down.

Democratic Congressmember John Murtha of Pennsylvania said the probe will SHOW that Marines: "killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

Notice he didn't state that the report will SAY as much. Of course, the Pentagon won't find U.S. soldiers guilty of such atrocities. That would be bad for business - I mean War.

The most John Murta can ever hope for is that the report will allow a conclusion of cold-blooded execution to be inferred from the "facts." No such conclusion will be reached by the Pentagon. The loony left will be free to decide what they wish, as they always do. Our boys acted with courage, honor and conviction. God bless em. We can WIN this "War On Terror" if we all stand behind our boys. Lord knows, it's safer than standing IN FRONT OF EM! Ba-dum-bum!

But seriously, we didn't START this dirty war (by overthrowing the democratic government of Iran in 1953 at the behest of the British when the Iranians nationalized their oil supply. Or by installing and supporting a brutal religious dictatorship in Iran after the CIA-backed overthrow. Or by supplying both sides in the Iran - Iraq conflict. Or by claiming that we would support Iraqi Kurds' overthrow of Sadam and then watching as Sadam's forces slaughtered them. Or by... Or by...).

NO SIR! Our freedom-hating enemies, those huddled women and babies, started it. We will not leave until we "Finish The Job (TM)." Leaving would cast doubt on our National Penis Size. And if there's one thing we want the world to know, it's that AMERICA IS A BIG DICK! We will F-CK anyone who screws with us! We will remain FIRM in our resolve and we will make life HARD for our enemies!

The Military Industrial Complex has been lying about the incident from the start. It's SOP: Deny everything until you get caught. Then modify the lie. The Pentagon initially claimed the civilians had died in a roadside bombing. Then they claimed there was a firefight. An IED. An alien abduction that brainwashed "Good American Boys (TM)" into accidentally slaughtering unarmed women and babies who were huddled, screaming, in a corner. Anything but the truth. America can't HANDLE the truth. Luckily, we can trust the press to lie to us. See how that works?

"Our weapons just went off, sir. It was the damndest thing. We went into that house to offer a hot meal and blankets to those terrified Moms and babies. Our guns just started killing them all. I've never seen anything like it."

And to all the apologists in this thread, in the words of Mick Foley (Bon Jovi is just bitin), "Have a nice day!"

...

And it's great how you deleted your first post saying they should be executed...

See my most recent post. I'll paraphrase. If found gulity of article 118 section I, "put them down like rabid dogs." I'm actually against the death penalty, but it's an option on the books, and if I were ever given the choice of firing squad or life imprisonment, I'd choose the former.

You don't know what will happen with this investigation. You just assume to know what was going on in their heads do you? You just say that these Marines murdered in cold blood without knowing a damn thing about them.

Ummm a lot of them are reservists. The weekend warriors, if you will. I know this personally. Combat does funny things to your brain.

Oh, and Marines are only human, just like the rest of us.

I know plenty of reservists myself. The soldiers in question here are 3rd batallion, 1st Marine Corps. *Not Reservists*. Justice sees all equally but I'd imagine you could make a better training/equipment/morale/experience mitigating argument for reservists.

Yes, I have a psych degree and am intimately familiar with what combat does to your brain. I'm sure we'll see the PTSD/insanity defence, surely not the IED killed our buddy so we premeditativley took revenge by killing every man/woman/child in their homes defence.

Marines, Charles Manson, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler and Josef Stalin were all human. So what? Did they have a bad day or suffer from PTSD? In fact, most of these dictators were paranoid and suffered from severe mental illness. Pol Pot and Himmler were sociopaths, Hitler and Stalin were paranoid, Hitler had MS and was constantly doped up. Stalin was an alcoholic, and Manson, well. Manson's a paranoid schizophrenic with delusions of divinity (on a good day).

So what? It doesn't excuse anything. All it says to me is donate more funds for research into mental illness.

Here's my PSA, "Before your son/daughter/subordinate commits genocide, mass murder and faces the death penalty/life imprisonment, be sure to see they get the mental health assessment and treatment they need when they need it."

Think of what would have happened if the Vienna art academy had just let poor misunderstood Adolf paint watercolors for a living.

Apparently I need to repost my first post....



It's the fact that people are saying the Marines did this "in cold blood" that I have a problem with.

The term "in cold blood" is being used as a way of saying that it wasn't in the heat of combat.