National Guard to Mexican Border

You never cease to amaze me. You marginalize your ideas so impressively

That's what I said. You do know who Vincente Fox is right?

another curt dismissal. You're quite predictable.

You are a very funny person! Do you always enjoy talking down to others?

I do not think the President of Mexico is really in control of it.

Shouldn't NAFTA help prevent illegal immigration by encourging more jobs in Mexico?
It could be worse, the PRI could still hold the presidency.


What is a "market" wage? I would think that it is the wage that the employer is willing to pay and that the workers are willing to accept. How are the wages below market value? Coercion? If that is the case then it should already be illegal to do that.

I do think that labor unions have been weakened substantially in the US. I think that it is important that workers are able to organize and collectively bargain, it helps to prevent a lot of potential abuses.



could we hold personal attacks to a minimum?

You're talking about the "poor Mexicans" like we have some responsibility to give them a more economically viable option. We have law that some would-be immigrants choose to violate.

There are already some "walls" and "bang-bangs" on the border. They are there to do a job.

"Lean on Vicente Fox" is a nice idea but it puts all the emphasis on the MEXICO to do something to cure a United States Problem. Mexico has no responsibility for our protection and enforcement of OUR side of the border. Why should we devise a plan that requires Mexico to do something they have failed to do for so long?

If we keep the "poor Mexicans" from coming into the US and propping up their current system with "wages sent back from the US" then maybe the would-be immigrants would do something about the conditions in their own country.

I dismissed you because I didn't want to waste my time explaining something so obvious to a person of such supposed intellect that she knows the TRUTH about everything.

The fact is that Congress is working on a variety of ways to deal with the issue. I'm sure there are some measures that include cooperation with/from Mexico. But to suggest that "some dumb ass fence and soldiers with bang bangs" is not a reasonable start to addressing the issue is ignoring the fact that it works.

Yes Zuzu, I will try my best. I respect the fact that you are also a part of this dialog. I have no right to derail it by engaging in personal attacks

I said Vincente Fox should. Do try to keep up.



A job that they have done poorly, because THAT's not the way to fix the problem.




It's a MEXICAN problem. Mexico's Government has a responsability to provide adquate lives to it's people. I don't imagine you would understand that since you don't even believe the United States Government has that responsability to it's own people.




Typical response from you here. You blame the impoverished for the crimes of the wealthy.



You dismissed me because you have no arguments in front of the truth. You are being so gamed by the system you're no longer even aware of basic human compassion.



As you say the fences and the bang bang sticks have been there for years and they've solved nothing. WE have to begin addressing the real problems, not the one's our Government manufactures for our entertainment. You've bought the lies of the wealthy elite like a teenage hooker with stars in her eyes.

This is what I was responding to:


regarding walls and bang bangs:

They have not been able to adequately perform their job because they have not had enough walls and bang bangs.





Hmm, I don't remember this discussion being about "How we can Help Mexico," but I agree that leaning on Vicente Fox is PART of the solution, but it cannot be the HEART of the solution as you propose.



Regarding my statement:

you responded:

I'm not sure I follow you how I blamed the impoverished for the crimes of the wealthy. I DID imply that we support the crimes of the wealthy (Mexican government) by allowing them to export their poverty and import the cash from the US.




I'll let others determine who's being gamed, who's being reasonable, and who has compassion.



I think I addressed who the hooker is in this discussion.

The very fact that you think Mexicans coming across our border is a "MEXICAN problem" shows how radical you are and why any dialogue with you is for the most part, futile.

Briana Dawson

You dont think that a country that has citizens actively fleeing it's borders isn't it's own problem?

You don't think the reason is because of Mexico's climate of "Haves" and "Have Nothings"?

I'm not surprised that you only see the problem of Mexicans fleeing to this country so that they can live a somewhat decent life only thru the lens of how it inconveniences the great and always faultless United States.

You wanna solve the problem --stop greedy corporations from enabling the problem by looking the other way and hiring undocumented workers for cheap.

Strengthen the Unions in this country. Place sanctions on Vincente Fox until he starts Government funded work programs like the APA. In fact --lets have some APA programs here in the states and start paying a decent minimum wage so that our own citizens can take these jobs that the Government claims they would never take.

The problem is that in both Mexico and the United States the rich get richer while the poor get poorer. How long before Canada starts protecting it's borders against citizens of the USA?

Meanwhile what's Bush's answer? Militiarizing the borders, building detention centers and forcing national Identity Papers down our collective throats. All the while fat ill informed Americans buy into this shit with their McDonald's filled bellys while they burp up gerd and watch American Idol on their DVD sporting SUVs.

Hmmm... The United States could always move the border..... again. I understand there are some very productive oil fields in northen Mexico.

1845
Texas is officially annexed to the United States. This angers the Mexican government and a conflict arises over the official border between Texas and Mexico.

1846
The United States invades Mexico under the banner of Manifest Destiny. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo ends the Mexican War that same year. Under the treaty, half the land area of Mexico, including Texas, California, most of Arizona and New Mexico, and parts of Colorado, Utah, and Nevada, is ceded to the United States. The treaty gives Mexican nationals one year to choose U.S. or Mexican citizenship. Approximately 75,000 Hispanic people choose to remain in the United States and become citizens by conquest.

("Remember the Alamo", March 6, 1836)

Such a loaded post. Why don't you just say what you want to say .

If I'm understanding Barbara correctly: citizenship, green card, whatever gets them to a happily legal status where they need to be. I wouldn't say amnesty though. There are good enough reasons the system is there at all, but it could use quite a bit of improvement (mainly in the security and speed areas).

That is such a load of crap. If your neighboring nation is having economic problems, you are going to have problems resulting from it. In that case (which is this case), it is in the best interest of your citizens to help your neighbor solve its problem. No nation is a metaphorical island, even when it is a physical island. None of us live in isolation anymore, and to ignore what is going on with neighbors will only cause more problems for us.



Corruption. In Mexico they don't have to hide it like they try to in the US or Japan.



Maybe not, but it sure does take the pressure off, so don’t look for it to go away soon. Really, that's a very pot to kettle observation.



Yep, I can agree with that. Mexico's goverement is far to corrupt for that to work.



Isolationism worked so well in the past, let’s try it again!

What do you want the United States to do? There is no way they can force Mexico to clean up its act. They are angry with all of the "interfering" that the United States is suppose to bhe doing now.



I am told it is a way of live. Even to get phone service a bribe is required. It is not the rich it is everone.



It makes it possible for Mexico to continue. Mexico will not change until the people of Mexico really want change. Allowing them to continue is holding back the change.




Goverments are a reflection of the people. As I have said it is a way of life. I dont know the spanish but it translates to "the little bite". The bribe that is paid to gey ordinary services. The flaw is within them.



What do you suggest? The United States can not solve Mexicos problems without their consent and help. Mexico should be a very rich nation with all of its mineral wealth! The people of Mexico are suppose to be hard workers and they have mineral wealth but the nation is poor. The people of Mexico are blaming the United States and others more and more for their own problems. It is easy to blame ones problems on others and not look at home and really solve ones own problems.

Like people nations can only be helped by themselves. If they do not want to takle their problems nobody else can!

OK...I admit the history lesson was sort of tougue in cheek. But, here is some more food for thought. Should the U.S. consider adopting some or most of the Mexican government's policies and laws regarding illegal immigration into Mexico?

Under the Mexican Constitution, the Ley General de Población, or General Law on Population, spells out specifically the country's immigration policy. It is an interesting law -- and one that should cause us all to ask, “ Why is our southern neighbor pushing us to water down our own immigration laws and policies, when its own immigration restrictions are the toughest on the continent? ”

If a felony is a crime punishable by more than one year in prison, then Mexican law makes it a felony to be an illegal alien in Mexico.

If the United States adopted such statutes, Mexico no doubt would denounce it as a manifestation of American racism and bigotry.

Excerpts from Mexican Constitution and Immigration Laws:

Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned:
Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned. (Article 116)
Foreigners who sign government documents "with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses" are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116)

Foreigners who fail to obey the rules will be fined, deported, and/or imprisoned as felons:
Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are to be punished. (Article 117)
Foreigners who are deported from Mexico and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 11
Foreigners who violate the terms of their visa may be sentenced to up to six years in prison (Articles 119, 120 and 121). Foreigners who misrepresent the terms of their visa while in Mexico -- such as working with out a permit -- can also be imprisoned.

Under Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony. The General Law on Population says,
"A penalty of up to two years in prison and a fine of three hundred to five thousand pesos will be imposed on the foreigner who enters the country illegally." (Article 123)

Foreigners with legal immigration problems may be deported from Mexico instead of being imprisoned. (Article 125)

Foreigners who "attempt against national sovereignty or security" will be deported. (Article 126)

Mexicans who help illegal aliens enter the country are themselves considered criminals under the law:
A Mexican who marries a foreigner with the sole objective of helping the foreigner live in the country is subject to up to five years in prison. (Article 127)

Shipping and airline companies that bring undocumented foreigners into Mexico will be fined. (Article 132)

All of the above runs contrary to what Mexican leaders are demanding of the United States. The stark contrast between Mexico's immigration practices versus its American immigration preachings is telling. It gives a clear picture of the Mexican government's agenda: to have a one-way immigration relationship with the United States.

Coupled with a very stringent and restrictive resident visa process, it would be very easy to be classified an Illegal Immigrant in Mexico. No clean cells, good food, cable TV and video games in a Mexican prison, I hear. In fact, a foreign prisoner has to pay for his/her own meals. I am sure the guards have some interesting ways for prisoners to earn their lunch money, too. Ouch....