Iraq abuse 'as bad as Saddam era'

That's exactly how I feel whenever I post in a political thread.

why are you having such a difficult time expressing your views?

I will concede that my French example above may not be the most relevent

The problem with your definitions is that you are stating what they should mean in an ideal world. If you think like this, you are in danger of making the mistakes some Communist countries did in assuming that the definition a word should have is the definition it will have. It looked good on paper for every man to be treated as equal under the government, but it did not work out in the end.

There is not complete freedom in the U.S.. Freedom is the ability to do whatever you want, and we all know that some people want things we don't believe they should be able to do. You have to take some freedoms, like the freedom to kill, away from some to protect the freedom of others.

Equality is a scale. Even in your definition you are showing that you think some things should be made equal while others things should not. There are different degrees of this, and even the U.S. does not give complete equaility. We don't believe in everyone being equally wealthy. Socialism is the government system that pushes more to the side that everyone should be on an equal level and not just the people with money. In America, money very much is power. No one is equal, and to some that is the greatest part about the country. To others that is the worst part.

Now democracy is not what allows for the three things you mentioned. All democracy does is allow the majority to pick what level of freedom, equality, and order they prefer. If the majority of the country wants something, then there is a greater chance that it will happen than if one man is in charge. The majority of a country does not always want the best things. Remember Germany was a democracy, and the majority of their country went to some scary extremes at one point in history. Nazi Germany was not just a crazy dictator forcing people to do what they did not want to do. The country was behind him until they woke up and saw what they had done. A democracy only works if the majority and the leaders are right in their decisions. If not, then things can get bad.

Yes and Yes.

Briana Dawson

Dark, I appreciate your response, but I think my definitions are accurate and general enough to serve as guidelines when discussing those terms.

In fact, if you reread my definitions, you will see that I accounted for the very concerns you outlined above.

Freedom is not unfettered ability to do as you wish...I said that in my defintion..RULE of LAW balanced with Individual rights...You cannot kill whimsically because you desire. By doing so you infringe on the rights of another to live his/her life.

I agree everyone is not equal in wealth, power, etc...I said that in my definition. That can never happen on the scale of a nation. The first reason this is true is because every individual has different abilities that are more or less worthwhile to a functioning society. The engineer who develops high-efficiency, low pollution transportaion is not equal to the fry guy at McDonalds. They are however equal in the eyes of the court, in their ability to particpate in the political, social, and economic processes of the society, and to lives their lives without imposed restrictions on their mobility, education and general pursuit of their life goals (whether they are capable of doing any of this rests in their own hands).

My conclusion is that democracy helps promote these values. Do you disagree?

Yes, I disagree. I do not believe democracy promotes these values. I don't think democracy changes a thing except for the time and violence it takes for the masses to affect their government. I don't think democracy ends the problems of fear and hate among the populace, and I don't think democracy automatically brings prosperity, lack of discrimination, or justice. Type of government in my mind is really not as important for the present as the way the government is actually functioning. If the country had a king that ruled in a way the people could approve of, then I would consider that to be a healthier country than say a democracy that elected a mad war monger.

I think the important thing about democracy is that it has connected the masses to the government in a much faster less violent manner than the assasinations and military take overs of the past. For that, I approve of democracy as a peice of any government system, but I do not think it is what actually causes a place to have freedom, equality, or justice. I think much more than the government has to change to truly promote these values.

I have lots of other places where I get into political arguments and more, but I SL to get away from that stuff. Sometimes, though, I can't help myself.

Bad Ordinal, no scripts for you. *slaps wrist*

Yes, I disagree. I do not believe democracy promotes these values. I don't think democracy changes a thing except for the time and violence it takes for the masses to affect their government. I don't think democracy ends the problems of fear and hate among the populace, and I don't think democracy automatically brings prosperity, lack of discrimination, or justice. Type of government in my mind is really not as important for the present as the way the government is actually functioning. If the country had a king that ruled in a way the people could approve of, then I would consider that to be a healthier country than say a democracy that elected a mad war monger.

I think the important thing about democracy is that it has connected the masses to the government in a much faster less violent manner than the assasinations and military take overs of the past. For that, I approve of democracy as a peice of any government system, but I do not think it is what actually causes a place to have freedom, equality, or justice. I think much more than the government has to change to truly promote these values.

Yes Ellie, to both.

I also am ashamed at some of the things humans do (not just the US).

Some of these links are old news, but most people will never hear / care. Take a look:

Bruce Willis
Truth or Fiction
Good News in Iraq
Telegraph Opinion
Heretical Ideas
AFIS
Times Union: Life During Wartime
Coalition Provisional Authority
Operation Iraqi Children
Training Iraqi Teams In Mosul
SATISFACTION OF A JOB WELL DONE

But then, your definition mixes two (conflicting) things: freedom and right to live.

There's two freedom: freedom as in "my freedom to swing my fist stops at the tip of your nose", this "freedom" would men in fact the group of things you are free to do in a society. I this the other freedom discuted is meant more like complete freedom.

we are discussing values fostered by democracy. Freedom in a society must be protected by the rule of law.

This is the problem in Iraq. They have not established an adequate level of security to protect the people so their freedoms cannot be defended. I've been arguing that a society that promotes democratic principles is more likely to establish a society that values freedom, equality, and justice (see my definitions of these terms above).

I'm going to approach this in a different way. I think democracy is a good peice of a government system that allows people a faster less violent control over the government. I don't think any bad things will occur with democracy being re-introduced in Iraq and introduced in Afghanistan.

The thing I don't agree with is the idea that democracy changes society. Doesn't democracy just change the government to fit the way society thinks? In America freedom has always been kept away from large groups of people in different ways until very recently. Women were not treated equall in America for over half of its existance, and they didn't have the right to vote till the 20's. African Americans were slaves for a long time, and up until at least the 60's things didn't really even start to balance out for them. Our government has changed to provide more freedom and equality as time has gone on, but only after society changed the way it thought.

Democracy is not a bad thing, but it is not what changes society, it is what changes government. It is quite possible for a monarch to provide freedom and equality under his rule. Democracy does not have a monopoly on these two qualities, but the important thing that must happen in a democracy is the change in society. The government does not change its ways in a democracy unless the people do. This is not entirely bad, as I don't think it would be right for us to force Iraq to live like us, but things we consider lack of freedom and equality will not be fostered in Iraq by simply installing a democracy.

Back to one of the OP's points, are we safer. Don't you find this poll interesting?

CBS News Poll. Aug. 29-31, 2005. N=871 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"How likely do you think it is that there will be another terrorist attack in the United States within the next few months: very likely, somewhat likely, not very likely, or not at all likely?"

                   %    %    %    %    %
                   V    S    N    N    U
                   e    o    o    o    n
                   r    m    t    t    s
                   y    e              u
                        w    V    A    r
                        h    e    t    e
                        a    r       
                        t    y    A  
                                  l  
                                  l  
                                      
  8/29-31/05       9   43   35    7    6
  9/6-8/04        17   44   28    8    3
  8/15-18/04      17   50   20    8    5
  7/30 - 8/1/04   19   48   23    5    5
  7/11-15/04      24   47   20    7    2
  3/4-5/03        27   48   17    4    4
  2/24-25/03      23   51   18    6    2
  2/10-12/03      35   45   14    4    2
  1/03            14   48   28    7    3
  11/02           27   50   15    6    2
  10/02           27   47   15    7    3
  9/22-23/02      21   46   26    5    2
  9/2-5/02        23   46   23    5    3
  7/02            30   43   22    4    1
  6/02            36   45   13    3    3
  5/19-20/02      33   41   17    6    3
  5/13-14/02      25   47   21    4    3
  4/02            28   46   17    5    4
  2/02            18   44   29    5    4
  10/25-28/01     53   35    8    2    2
  10/8/01         46   39    8    3    4

Have we forgotten the attacks in the passing of time, or do we feel more secure? Or, are most people actaully thinking that the federal government is doing something right in regards to security (doubtful from other polls).

we are facing an oil shortage! wtf? get with the program!