Iraq abuse 'as bad as Saddam era'

Millions of people protested before the start of the Iraq war. Most suspected it would end up like this :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4475030.stm#

Don't we all feel proud of how we have "helped" the Iraqi people ?
We all feel so much safer at home, too, don't we ?
And I fear there is worse to come.

Didn't our governments do well !

Yay democracy!

To be fair, the person who that article is about is talking about the Iraqi people themselves and how, as they are slowly being given authority back, are reverting to the methods used by Saddam because that's all they know. Instead of bitching about the governments who freed those people so they now at least have a choice about the matter, why don't we actually send real help to the Iraqis?

Indeed we should. What I was commenting on was the way our governments put across democracy as if it will fix everything.

the idea isn't "democracy will fix everything"

the idea is that with democracy comes possibilities for equality, justice, freedom.

the truth is without democracy there is NO hope of equality, justice, freedom.

I agree. Let's have some in the USA.

The idea certainly isn't "democracy will fix everything", but that hasn't stopped our governments touting the invasion as if all we do is introduce democracy and everything's better.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of democracy - although I agree it's the best working method of government we've come up with so far. I for one really do welcome our robot overlords.

Well, there's precious little democracy in Iraq, so the point is a little moot... it's not like your average person has any more choice now over who kills him or her. It's just a lot more likely that somebody will.

I tend to think a bit differently than you on this. In truth, socialism is known to be the government structure most concerned with equality. Justice changes from culture to culture, no matter what the government is. Not everyone thinks alike when it comes to justice. What some consider to be impossible to live with, others consider to be an insignificant issue. Anarchy is the quickest route to complete freedom for everyone inlcluding the freedom to kill your neighbor and take his wealth.

In America, it is patriotic to say that democracy is the only possible hope for equality, justice, and freedom. I think it is nothing more than patriotic, though. Freedom and equality will always contadict each other in all governments, and justice will always be in the eye of the beholder.

I think we should all take a moment to consider how it isn't the style of government that really effects things but the people in charge of it.

True. Wasn't germany a democracy when Hitler was elected? Was he not the leader the majority chose for themselves? Makes you wonder what a highly nationalistic democratic populace would choose when they believe they have the power to conquer anyone in the world to make it "better".

First, Socialism cannot be compared with Democracy.
Second, it appears you are basing your statements on bad definitions of Equality, Freedom, and Justice.

Freedom - With Freedom comes responsibility. That means the Rule of Law and the Rights of individuals must be balanced. This, as a general statement, has nothing to do with patriotism.

Equality - Equality is not defined as "all people have same status, power, income". Instead Equality means that all people have similar access to opportunity to live their lives without discriminatory restrictions; all people are viewed equally by the law; all people are guaranteed the right to participate in their government.

Justice - impartial legal system. Yes, different socities and cultures will have different codes of justice based on their moral and ethical views. I did not advocate any one justice system. What I said was that Democracy offers the best hope for a fair and impartial justice system.

ah, yes, we would all be ok if we just had Benevolent dictators in charge!

I'm going to have to disagree with you AJ. But I will agree that you still need good men and women in positions of power even in a democracy

I wonder if 25 million Iraqis who voted in the last election, or the 25 million who will vote on Dec 15 would agree with you.

Democracy and "killing in the streets" are two different things. I thnk the French of 1802 thought as you do now....what happened?...they traded "Fraternity, Equality, Liberty" for Napolean.

People in Iraq are being threatened by a violent struggle for power. The US, Britain, Australia and all the Allied forces in Iraq are working to protect the rights of every citizen in Iraq to participate in the construction of a government based on democratic principles. You should support the Iraqi people

I'll disregard this as you being silly.

it's all around you Kendra

I'm not at all. I firmly believe that we don't (yet?) have the capability to rule ourselves as well as we'd like to.

But surely if we had benevolent dictators in charge things would be great?

And Iraq is a case in point that the people in charge are what matters isn't it?

you keep saying "the people in charge"

do you mean the government officials? If yes, then I agree that having people with integrity is important. But surely you aren't suggesting a benevolent dictatorship is better than a democracy, are you?

If the dictator knows what (s)he's doing and so doesn't mess things up accidently, yes. Why would you suggest otherwise?

And by people in charge I guess I mean government officials, I'm too tired to think hard enough to extract words from my thoughts (which are primarily abstract) without generalising at the moment, I've been up all night.

Oh, I think it's worth mentioning that I believe in the long term good.

there's only 50 years worth of oil left. WTF! get with the program.

(go uranium! go!)

but that's completely... you're not... oh never mind, should never have posted in the first place really

Hey... if ONE guy said it... it MUST be true. PFFFFFFFT is all I have to say about this.