
From here.
Discuss.
-Ghoti
[edit for link to site graph comes from]
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National Debt (Interesting graph) |
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Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
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09-23-2005 06:05
_____________________
"Sometimes I believe that this less material life is our truer life, and that our vain presence on the terraqueous globe is itself the secondary or merely virtual phenomenon." ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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Jsecure Hanks
Capitalist
Join date: 9 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,451
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09-23-2005 06:21
I always assumed America's debt went way back... Seems it all started around 1982!
If America has gotten into all that debt since 1982, surely they can get out of it. And what went so horribly wrong in the year of 1982 which plunged the USA into trillions and trillions of dollars of debt? |
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Richie Waves
Predictable
Join date: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 1,424
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09-23-2005 07:02
Ronald Regan! thats what..
_____________________
no u!
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Neehai Zapata
Unofficial Parent
Join date: 8 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,970
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09-23-2005 07:45
Cold War hysteria went wrong in the 80s.
Fear of the big bad enemy will make Americans let the government rack up as much debt as they want. Look at the world today. _____________________
Unofficial moderator and proud dysfunctional parent to over 1000 bastard children.
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Introvert Petunia
over 2 billion posts
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,065
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09-23-2005 07:55
Interesting graph. As it looked like you produced it yourself might I request a modification that I think would make it more accurate? True the debt is increasing significantly, as is the GDP. If you have the time and inclination I'd appreciate if you could recast that graph as proportion of GDP. I don't think the picture will change much, but will be more meaningful.
While trying to find the raw data needed to make my own, I did bump into the National Debt Clock which is interesting but also suffers from the same confound. I also bumped into an a Government Accounting Office report [pdf] which spills a lot of words and graphs on the subject. The graph on pages 17, 18, and 19 approach what I am asking for, but they keep switching the definition of "debt" and my little brain can't follow 'em. |
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
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09-23-2005 08:04
Nice to post a chart with no information.
The answer to your question is inflation. The dollar in 1950 will only buy 13 cents of what the dollar of today will buy. Think about 4% inflation over 55 years. It is a nice effort to oversimplfy an issue, but people with common sense and a little education can see right through it. Lets also take a look at tax rates.... World War II Even before the United States entered the Second World War, increasing defense spending and the need for monies to support the opponents of Axis aggression led to the passage in 1940 of two tax laws that increased individual and corporate taxes, which were followed by another tax hike in 1941. By the end of the war the nature of the income tax had been fundamentally altered. Reductions in exemption levels meant that taxpayers with taxable incomes of only $500 faced a bottom tax rate of 23 percent, while taxpayers with incomes over $1 million faced a top rate of 94 percent. These tax changes increased federal receipts from $8.7 billion in 1941 to $45.2 billion in 1945. Even with an economy stimulated by war-time production, federal taxes as a share of GDP grew from 7.6 percent in 1941 to 20.4 percent in 1945. Beyond the rates and revenues, however, another aspect about the income tax that changed was the increase in the number of income taxpayers from 4 million in 1939 to 43 million in 1945. Another important feature of the income tax that changed was the return to income tax withholding as had been done during the Civil War. This greatly eased the collection of the tax for both the taxpayer and the Bureau of Internal Revenue. However, it also greatly reduced the taxpayer's awareness of the amount of tax being collected, i.e. it reduced the transparency of the tax, which made it easier to raise taxes in the future. Developments after World War II Tax cuts following the war reduced the Federal tax burden as a share of GDP from its wartime high of 20.9 percent in 1944 to 14.4 percent in 1950. However, the Korean War created a need for additional revenues which, combined with the extension of Social Security coverage to self-employed persons, meant that by 1952 the tax burden had returned to 19.0 percent of GDP. In 1953 the Bureau of Internal Revenue was renamed the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), following a reorganization of its function. The new name was chosen to stress the service aspect of its work. By 1959, the IRS had become the world's largest accounting, collection, and forms-processing organization. Computers were introduced to automate and streamline its work and to improve service to taxpayers. In 1961, Congress passed a law requiring individual taxpayers to use their Social Security number as a means of tax form identification. By 1967, all business and personal tax returns were handled by computer systems, and by the late 1960s, the IRS had developed a computerized method for selecting tax returns to be examined. This made the selection of returns for audit fairer to the taxpayer and allowed the IRS to focus its audit resources on those returns most likely to require an audit. Throughout the 1950s tax policy was increasingly seen as a tool for raising revenue and for changing the incentives in the economy, but also as a tool for stabilizing macroeconomic activity. The economy remained subject to frequent boom and bust cycles and many policymakers readily accepted the new economic policy of raising or lowering taxes and spending to adjust aggregate demand and thereby smooth the business cycle. Even so, however, the maximum tax rate in 1954 remained at 87 percent of taxable income. While the income tax underwent some manner of revision or amendment almost every year since the major reorganization of 1954, certain years marked especially significant changes. For example, the Tax Reform Act of 1969 reduced income tax rates for individuals and private foundations. Beginning in the late 1960s and continuing through the 1970s the United States experienced persistent and rising inflation rates, ultimately reaching 13.3 percent in 1979. Inflation has a deleterious effect on many aspects of an economy, but it also can play havoc with an income tax system unless appropriate precautions are taken. Specifically, unless the tax system's parameters, i.e. its brackets and its fixed exemptions, deductions, and credits, are indexed for inflation, a rising price level will steadily shift taxpayers into ever higher tax brackets by reducing the value of those exemptions and deductions. During this time, the income tax was not indexed for inflation and so, driven by a rising inflation, and despite repeated legislated tax cuts, the tax burden rose from 19.4 percent of GDP to 20.8 percent of GDP. Combined with high marginal tax rates, rising inflation, and a heavy regulatory burden, this high tax burden caused the economy to under-perform badly, all of which laid the groundwork for the Reagan tax cut, also known as the Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981. The Reagan Tax Cut The Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981, which enjoyed strong bi-partisan support in the Congress, represented a fundamental shift in the course of federal income tax policy. Championed in principle for many years by then-Congressman Jack Kemp (R-NY) and then-Senator Bill Roth (R- DE), it featured a 25 percent reduction in individual tax brackets, phased in over 3 years, and indexed for inflation thereafter. This brought the top tax bracket down to 50 percent. The 1981 Act also featured a dramatic departure in the treatment of business outlays for plant and equipment, i.e. capital cost recovery, or tax depreciation. Heretofore, capital cost recovery had attempted roughly to follow a concept known as economic depreciation, which refers to the decline in the market value of a producing asset over a specified period of time. The 1981 Act explicitly displaced the notion of economic depreciation, instituting instead the Accelerated Cost Recovery System which greatly reduced the disincentive facing business investment and ultimately prepared the way for the subsequent boom in capital formation. In addition to accelerated cost recovery, the 1981 Act also instituted a 10 percent Investment Tax Credit to spur additional capital formation. Prior to, and in many circles even after the 1981 tax cut, the prevailing view was that tax policy is most effective in modulating aggregate demand whenever demand and supply become mismatched, i.e. whenever the economy went in to recession or became "over-heated". The 1981 tax cut represented a new way of looking at tax policy, though it was in fact a return to a more traditional, or neoclassical, economic perspective. The essential idea was that taxes have their first and primary effect on the economic incentives facing individuals and businesses. Thus, the tax rate on the last dollar earned, i.e. the marginal dollar, is much more important to economic activity than the tax rate facing the first dollar earned or than the average tax rate. By reducing marginal tax rates it was believed the natural forces of economic growth would be less restrained. The most productive individuals would then shift more of their energies to productive activities rather than leisure and businesses would take advantage of many more now profitable opportunities. It was also thought that reducing marginal tax rates would significantly expand the tax base as individuals shifted more of their income and activities into taxable forms and out of tax-exempt forms. The 1981 tax cut actually represented two departures from previous tax policy philosophies, one explicit and intended and the second by implication. The first change was the new focus on marginal tax rates and incentives as the key factors in how the tax system affects economic activity. The second policy departure was the de facto shift away from income taxation and toward taxing consumption. Accelerated cost recovery was one manifestation of this shift on the business side, but the individual side also saw a significant shift in the enactment of various provisions to reduce the multiple taxation of individual saving. The Individual Retirement Account, for example, was enacted in 1981. Simultaneously with the enactment of the tax cuts in 1981 the Federal Reserve Board, with the full support of the Reagan Administration, altered monetary policy so as to bring inflation under control. The Federal Reserve's actions brought inflation down faster and further than was anticipated at the time, and one consequence was that the economy fell into a deep recession in 1982. Another consequence of the collapse in inflation was that federal spending levels, which had been predicated on a higher level of expected inflation, were suddenly much higher in inflation-adjusted terms. The combination of the tax cuts, the recession, and the one-time increase in inflation-adjusted federal spending produced historically high budget deficits which, in turn, led to a tax increase in 1984 that pared back some of the tax cuts enacted in 1981, especially on the business side. As inflation came down and as more and more of the tax cuts from the 1981 Act went into effect, the economic began a strong and sustained pattern of growth. Though the painful medicine of disinflation slowed and initially hid the process, the beneficial effects of marginal rate cuts and reductions in the disincentives to invest took hold as promised. http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/taxes/ustax.shtml I guess we could go back to 87% income tax rate for the rich and 23% income tax rates for the poor. Yeah, thats the ticket. |
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Jsecure Hanks
Capitalist
Join date: 9 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,451
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09-23-2005 08:12
I don't buy the inflation argument.
If inflation is to blame, you'd see a steady increase in national debt. There is a steady increase, and it's small. But then in the nineteen eighties, it balloons massively, shooting up at an alarming rate compared to all the years previously. I don't see why the rate of inflation would go up that much, in that short an amount of time. |
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
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09-23-2005 08:16
I don't buy the inflation argument. If inflation is to blame, you'd see a steady increase in national debt. There is a steady increase, and it's small. But then in the nineteen eighties, it balloons massively, shooting up at an alarming rate compared to all the years previously. I don't see why the rate of inflation would go up that much, in that short an amount of time. Please read. It is inflation combined with lower taxes and a massive increase in the GDP. I know school children and monkeys like pictures but adults should be able to look at pictures and see a deeper meaning. A simple chart does not supply a satisfactory explaination, unless you are dense enough to want it to. Also, please compare the US Debt to the debt of other Western Industrial Nations. |
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Jsecure Hanks
Capitalist
Join date: 9 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,451
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09-23-2005 08:25
I know school children and monkeys like pictures but adults should be able to look at pictures and see a deeper meaning. A simple chart does not supply a satisfactory explaination, unless you are dense enough to want it to. Huh? You're calling me a monkey at 16:16 UK time? Hmm, let's check brain: 16:16:07 => Brain 24% idle. Headache tablets in effect. Thoughts slow and syrup like 16:16:09 => Little over an hour till I go home from work for the WEEKEND 16:16:11 => Insult detected. Summon smart, clever response. *Insufficient Power* 16:16:12 => Backup Plan: Use STFU Noob insult 16:16:14 => *Special Event* It's finally a good time to use the STFU Noob insult 16:16:15 => Too tired, bored, sluggish to think over comments, just use insult 16:16:18 => Deploying insult... I know school children and monkeys like pictures but adults should be able to look at pictures and see a deeper meaning. A simple chart does not supply a satisfactory explaination, unless you are dense enough to want it to. STFU Noob! |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-23-2005 08:45
Nice to post a chart with no information. The answer to your question is inflation. The dollar in 1950 will only buy 13 cents of what the dollar of today will buy. Think about 4% inflation over 55 years. It is a nice effort to oversimplfy an issue, but people with common sense and a little education can see right through it. . That was my first thought too - Inflation. I think Eboni's Correct on this. I did some totally unscientific sampling of information google said to me and found a rather interesting article Graph of Price levels in the US http://users.pandora.be/walter.van.nieuwenhove/inflation/popinfl.gif Please Notice a very similair Post WW2 slope in the national Debt graph and the slope in the prices graph. ----------------------------------------------------- For those interested here is the source website - http://users.pandora.be/walter.van.nieuwenhove/inflation/infl.htm |
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Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
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09-23-2005 09:10
Interesting graph. As it looked like you produced it yourself No I did not make this graph. I posted a link to the site of the guy that (I presume) did. Its something I came across while cruising the web. Nice to post a chart with no information. I knew y'all would come along with lots of good supporting information. I felt it might spark some interesting conversation... and it looks like I was correct. -Ghoti _____________________
"Sometimes I believe that this less material life is our truer life, and that our vain presence on the terraqueous globe is itself the secondary or merely virtual phenomenon." ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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Jsecure Hanks
Capitalist
Join date: 9 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,451
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09-23-2005 09:17
No I did not make this graph. I posted a link to the site of the guy that (I presume) did. Its something I came across while cruising the web. I knew y'all would come along with lots of good supporting information. I felt it might spark some interesting conversation... and it looks like I was correct. -Ghoti Well I thought it was good. Nice one Ghoti... (Ugh, so bored and tired, can't drag fingers over keys no more....) |
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Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
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09-23-2005 09:19
Well I thought it was good. Nice one Ghoti... (Ugh, so bored and tired, can't drag fingers over keys no more....) Here's a link to what the site has to say about the chart: LINK, which I'm sure Eboni and others will have data to disagree with. -Ghoti _____________________
"Sometimes I believe that this less material life is our truer life, and that our vain presence on the terraqueous globe is itself the secondary or merely virtual phenomenon." ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
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09-23-2005 09:32
Yeah, charts like this need to be done in constant dollars (i.e. inflation adjusted).
Or another good measure would be to compare the increase in the debt (i.e. the deficit) vs. that year's GDP. The problem with this is that deficits can be shifted around to make some years look better and politicians like to put some things "outside the budget". The treatise on the tax code, while interesting and informative only goes part way to explain the deficit spike in the early 80's (Cold war spending was certainly also to blame) and does nothing to explain the subsequent jumps. The dangers of a large national debt are -money paid in intrest on the debt is money that can't be spent stimulating the economy -the dollar is backed only by "the full faith and credit" of the US govt. If confidence drops then the value of the dollar falls as well I heard an intesesting news article about China's insistance on linking their currency to the US dollar. In 2003, the central banks of Japan and China spent $400 billion attempting to maintain stable exchange rates against the U.S. dollar. This is done primarily by purchasing US securities helping to ensure that we get good intrest rates on our borrowing. What happens if China lets the Yuan float versu the US $? Manufacturing in the US continues to decline and as the $US continues to fall versus foreign currencies the price of manufactured goods (which are mostly imports) will continue to rise. Pretty much everyone knows that a day of reconing is coming sooner or later, the real question is how bad will it be and how prepared are we? _____________________
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. |
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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
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09-23-2005 09:35
You do realize that Bush needs to increase the debt to 2 more trillion in order to increase it as badly as Bill Clinton did.
This should be a log graph in order to to see the real relationships. _____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :
"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches." |
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Jsecure Hanks
Capitalist
Join date: 9 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,451
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09-23-2005 09:44
Can we in the UK demand our cash back from the USA, and fleece them for some cash? We could have an "America pays" day, where everyone in the UK gets £10 because the USA have paid back their debt.
Or not. But nevermind I'm bored and I want a house. |
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Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
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09-23-2005 09:56
Can we in the UK demand our cash back from the USA, and fleece them for some cash? We could have an "America pays" day, where everyone in the UK gets £10 because the USA have paid back their debt. Or not. But nevermind I'm bored and I want a house. The last time the UK tried to make us pay-up for our wars (French & Indian war we call it) we dumped all their tea into Boston harbor, so don't even think about it. _____________________
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. |
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Introvert Petunia
over 2 billion posts
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,065
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same graph, new data, they all suck
09-23-2005 11:16
Ghoti, thanks for giving the source link. I did find the data that I was looking for at the Government Printing Office and added it onto the graph. The green line shows the annual budget surplus relative to GDP which is mostly negative (budget deficit). While adding the new line, I did choose to rescale the original line to a logarithmic scale as the steep curve in the orginal tends to mislead the eye.
About the only thing that I can say with any confidence from the replotting and the new line is that the original debt line commits the "sin" of graphing cumulative data. That is, since there exists an annual deficit in almost all years, the debt will grow continually. Can one safely give Clinton credit for the blip upwards in surplus? I don't think so, you could as easily attribute it to the prior administration(s), creative accounting, or sunspots. There are arguments out there that say that chronic deficit spending may not be a terrible thing, but I don't know what they are so have no opinion on them. A couple of notes, just in case anyone thinks I'm being tricky. I moved the zero point of the left axis, which excel show poorly. I intentionally truncated the WWII era deficit display to give more visual range to the rest of the deficit. I have also added a little demo showing how cumulative numbers make a picture look bigger: the purple line is an "annual" random number under 10 the yellow line is simply the purple line added to itself year to year. I also note that excel sucks as a graphing tool. |
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Nala Galatea
Pink Dragon Kung-Fu
Join date: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 335
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09-23-2005 12:02
More wonderful charts from here
The following graph shows how the National Debt has grown year by year since 1940 in actual dollar amounts, uncorrected for inflation: This data was gathered from the U.S. Treasury department's web site. From time to time, I've gotten e-mail saying that the above graph is flawed -- it's just showing normal inflation. Well, I took the Debt numbers from the above graph and converted them all to 2000 dollars. Picking a different year would not have changed the shape of the graph below, just its height: As you can see, except for a rise at the end of World War II, the Debt remained remarkably constant for nearly forty years when inflationary forces are taken into account. After 1983 however, with the notable exception of the Fiscal Years ending in September of 2000 and 2001, the trend has been upward even when inflation is taken into account. If anyone wants to take the time to check these figures and make their own chart to wow and impress us, here's some good starting points. Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis - Consumer Price Index and Inflation Rates, 1913- Bureau of the Public Debt : Debt Outstanding by Type of Debt Good hunting. ![]() |
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Jauani Wu
pancake rabbit
Join date: 7 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,835
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09-23-2005 13:13
More wonderful charts from so clinton was reducing the debt according to inflation corrected figures? _____________________
http://wu-had.blogspot.com/
read my blog Mecha Jauani Wu hero of justice __________________________________________________ "Oh Jauani, you're terrible." - khamon fate |
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Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
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09-23-2005 13:35
so clinton was reducing the debt according to inflation corrected figures? That's the way I read the charts. -Ghoti _____________________
"Sometimes I believe that this less material life is our truer life, and that our vain presence on the terraqueous globe is itself the secondary or merely virtual phenomenon." ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
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09-23-2005 13:47
hmm, something doesn't add up. The original article says:
Then he worked with what could be characterized as the most hostel [sic] Congress in history for the last six years of his administration, yet he still managed to get the growth of the debt down to 0.32% (one third of one percent) his last year in office. Had his policies been followed for one more year the debt would have been reduced for the first time since the first year of the Kennedy administration. That says that Clinton's "surplus" was still negative. However the plots provided by Introvert and Nala both show periods of positive "surplus" during the Clinton years. Someone is wrong, but who and why? The footnote to the original article states: The debt totals in Encarta show the actual amount of money borrowed by the United States in a given year. This total is often different, and typically larger than the total a given budget might have stated. Budgets are planning documents; the borrowed totals given here are what actually happen. That is why even though the proposed budget was balanced during Bill Clinton’s last few years, the debt shown here shows an increase. The budget was balanced but the nation still borrowed more money than the budget predicted, or the treasury brought in. Are the last two graphs showing Budget deficit numbers? Because, as I stated before, politicians like to keep certain expendatures "off the books". <Insert Arthur-Anderson joke here> oops quick edit... yes it could be due to the inflation correction. silly me _____________________
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. |
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Julian Fate
80's Pop Star
Join date: 19 Oct 2003
Posts: 1,020
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09-23-2005 14:45
so clinton was reducing the debt according to inflation corrected figures? Looks more like "increasing slower during second term." The increase is fairly constant from 1983-1996 or so then tapers. I notice no one said, "So George Bush lowered the debt in his first couple years in office?"</fuel on the fire> |
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Introvert Petunia
over 2 billion posts
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,065
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09-23-2005 15:57
Someone is wrong, but who and why? Aside from all kinds of things like "non-bugetary spending" (no that's not tin-foil hat stuff, it's really called that) sneak off the federal books and all kinds of other accounting legerdemain, there was another bit of silliness added to the mix. Enter the Balanced Budget and Emergency Deficit Control Act of 1985 (aka Gramm-Rudman-Hollings Act) which was revised in 1987 due to a Supreme Court challenge. Paraphrasing P. J. O'Rorke, the GRH was a "historic piece of legislation that ensured that if an unbalanced budget was passed, then Congress would be forced to write another piece of historic legislation or sumptin". Thus ensued some of the grandest book cooking over the next few years that the world has likely ever seen until everyone forgot about GRH and hoped it would go away. So effectively, the people balancing Uncle Sam's checkbook were forced by act of Congress to make the numbers look right or else. Given the staggering amount of bookkeeping involved, getting those cooked numbers right in the first place let alone auditing them is likely impossible. So to put it in homier terms, it was like if you were unable to balance your checkbook, you just put in a few imaginary trillion dollars or so and get the bank to say "uh-huh" to it. Pretty neat that an organization that has no idea how much money it makes or spends can jail you if you make a math error on your 1040. ![]() |
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Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
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09-23-2005 16:11
I notice no one said, "So George Bush lowered the debt in his first couple years in office?"</fuel on the fire> Um, not the first couple years, but, yes it did go down in 2001 from the budget apporved in 2000 under Clinton As you can see, except for a rise at the end of World War II, the Debt remained remarkably constant for nearly forty years when inflationary forces are taken into account. After 1983 however, with the notable exception of the Fiscal Years ending in September of 2000 and 2001, the trend has been upward even when inflation is taken into account. Edited to add hyperlink: http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/faq.html _____________________
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. |