President Acknowledges Approving Secretive Eavesdropping

Btw- I've missed your smug little milkman picture. I hate that guy. lol.

Re: (4)- I'm not a lawyer; is there a legal definition of "terrorism?"

I'm assuming the "international" part is invalid since any of us can conspire with anyone with an internet connection or a phone.

No need to apologize, but thanks for clarification.

The President argues that he did get legal approval. He claims that the program targeted specific targets that qualify as described in 1802 and 1801(a). He also argues that the program followed all the requirements of 1802 (notification, review, etc).

Perhaps you don't like the FISA Act, or you don't believe that the program followed the rules. But please, tell me what it is you beleive is wrong! Is it the FISA Act itself, or do you think that the president is lying?

hehe..

there is a definition of terrorism. Follow the legalize in 1801 to find the definition.

here is a snippet:

I don't mean to direct my comments at any particular person.

I'm just saying there's a legal mechanism to find out if his actions were justified. Since there are clearly questions if this is the case then we should pursue this.

The act itself at this point. Politicians never lie, they bend the truth.

Agreed. I would like a discussion of the gray areas, rather than another "Bush Lied" thread

Heh. That's the problem with laws about terrorism, there's a gray line separating terrorism and good old fashioned rebellion that is never well defined. I can just see the trial now... "I did not have sexual relations with that woman (because blowjobs are like handshakes)."

It depends on what the definition of "is" is....

I found a list. This list details some of the warrentless searches of American Citizens and property allowed by Federal Law:

Detain American citizens for investigative purposes without a warrant;

Arrest American citizens, based on probable cause, without a warrant;

Conduct a warrantless search of the person of an American citizen who has been detained, with or without a warrant;

Conduct a warrantless search of the home of an American citizen in order to secure the premises while a warrant is being obtained;

Conduct a warrantless search of, and seize, items belonging to American citizens that are displayed in plain view and that are obviously criminal or dangerous in nature;

Conduct a warrantless search of anything belonging to an American citizen under exigent circumstances if considerations of public safety make obtaining a warrant impractical;

Conduct a warrantless search of an American citizen's home and belongings if another person, who has apparent authority over the premises, consents;

Conduct a warrantless search of an American citizen's car anytime there is probable cause to believe it contains contraband or any evidence of a crime;

Conduct a warrantless search of any closed container inside the car of an American citizen if there is probable cause to search the car — regardless of whether there is probable cause to search the container itself;

Conduct a warrantless search of any property apparently abandoned by an American citizen;

Conduct a warrantless search of any property of an American citizen that has lawfully been seized in order to create an inventory and protect police from potential hazards or civil claims;

Conduct a warrantless search — including a strip search — at the border of any American citizen entering or leaving the United States;

Conduct a warrantless search at the border of the baggage and other property of any American citizen entering or leaving the United States;

Conduct a warrantless search of any American citizen seeking to enter a public building;

Conduct a warrantless search of random Americans at police checkpoints established for public-safety purposes (such as to detect and discourage drunk driving);

Conduct warrantless monitoring of common areas frequented by American citizens;

Conduct warrantless searches of American citizens and their vessels on the high seas;

Conduct warrantless monitoring of any telephone call or conversation of an American citizen as long as one participant in the conversation has consented to the monitoring;

Conduct warrantless searches of junkyards maintained by American citizens;

Conduct warrantless searches of docks maintained by American citizens;

Conduct warrantless searches of bars or nightclubs owned by American citizens to police underage drinking;

Conduct warrantless searches of auto-repair shops operated by American citizens;

Conduct warrantless searches of the books of American gem dealers in order to discourage traffic in stolen goods;

Conduct warrantless drug screening of American citizens working in government, emergency services, the transportation industry, and nuclear plants;

Conduct warrantless drug screening of American citizens who are school officials;

Conduct warrantless drug screening of American citizens who are school students;

Conduct warrantless searches of American citizens who are on bail, probation or parole.

I just thought that was an interesting list. It isn't relevent to Electronic Wire-tapping

Recent insight suggests that the NSA spying has been so secretive because it relies on wiretapping a massive number of communication channels indiscriminately, looking for keywords and voice patterns automatically. That would explain why there are no warrants issued, because the NSA is casting a massive net, searching without probable cause.

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http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051220-5808.html

~Ulrika~

Say, is he any relation to Arthur Zimmermann of "telegram" fame?

.

But why are we so surprised? After all, the man allegedly said the Constitution is "just a goddamned piece of paper."

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P2

To those of you who are claiming FISA approved this...

"apparent" protest.

He gave no comment

It looks like nobody knows why he resigned. Maybe we should wait.

In my replies in this thread I showed that there is a method by which the President can perform warrantless electronic surveillance.

Perhaps you can show how the presidents actions are illegal? So far, I have not seen or heard any convincing eveidence that the Preseident acted outside his authority.

Did you even read that thread, or the source?

I'll leave it to the lawyers. I just find it incredibly chilling how the right wing sycophants are jumping to defend what appears to be a blatant trampling of our constitutional rights. It disgusts me to see my own countrymen leap to the defense of torture, rendition, unreasonable search and seizure, violations of international law, denial of due process, and all the other outrageously offensive things the Bush administration has done. Even if ultimately any of it is justifiable, even the slightest hint of any of it should be cause for serious concern for anyone who pretends to believe in the constitution, human rights, and the rule of law. It truly sickens me to my core.

Is that your answer? That doesn't add much to the debate, except that you are emotionally overwhelmed.

Good Luck Chip, I hope you feel better soon.

Just because he doesn't need a warrant (for some ungodly legal reason that should be examined and thrown out), does not mean he doesn't require probable cause. Somehow I think a constitutional amendment supercedes a special act that is *probably* being abused.
:hrug::
Again, I don't think this thing will have any concrete answers until we see exactly how the wiretapping was being done and for what specific reasons.

Oh, and regarding post 38 where gloating ensued because silence on an internet forum meant concession:
That was the most retardulous thing I've seen all week.

Chance, I'll agree with you on that one. Retardulous is a good word. Until that moment, however, there was quite a bit of guessing and emotional appeal going on. There had been very little examination of facts.

To be honest, the FISA Act Section 1802 is only one possible way in which warrantless electronic surveillance can be legally done. There are other ways to justify the Presidents actions as legal. All I'm trying to do is encourage a discussion of the reality of warrantless surveillance. Also, you can find a list of warrantless actions allowed by Federal Law.

If you would like to debate these things, thats fine. But, going on like Chip has with his "Bush is evil" rant is pointless.