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President Acknowledges Approving Secretive Eavesdropping

Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
12-17-2005 12:43
Hot off the presses! Bush has acknowledged approving secret eavesdropping, in violation of the constitution, over thirty times.
President Acknowledges Approving Secretive Eavesdropping
Bush Also Urges Congress to Extend Patriot Act


By Peter Baker and Lexie Verdon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, December 17, 2005; 12:12 PM


President Bush today acknowledged that he had secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on international communications of Americans and other domestic residents with known links to al Qaeda.

The controversial order has been approved by legal authorities in his administration, Bush said, and he added that members of Congress had been notified of it more than a dozen times.

He defended his decision to sign the secret order, calling the program a "vital tool in our war against terrorists" and "critical to saving American lives."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/17/AR2005121700456.html
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Joy Honey
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Join date: 17 Jun 2005
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12-17-2005 13:28
I saw this headline today:

Bush: Eavesdropping Helps Save U.S. Lives

From: someone
Facing angry criticism and challenges to his authority in Congress,
President Bush on Saturday unapologetically defended his administration's right to conduct secret post-Sept. 11 spying in the U.S. as "critical to saving American lives."...

News of the program comes at a particularly damaging and delicate time.

Already, the Bush administration is under fire for allegedly operating secret prisons in Eastern Europe and shipping suspected terrorists to other countries for harsh interrogations.

The NSA program's existence surfaced as the administration and its GOP allies on Capitol Hill were fighting to save the expiring provisions of the USA Patriot Act, the domestic anti-terrorism law enacted after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

In a stinging failure to Bush, Democrats and a few Republicans who say this law gives so much latitude to law enforcement officials that it threatens Americans' constitutional liberties succeeded Friday in stalling its renewal.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051217/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
12-17-2005 14:29
From: Joy Honey
I saw this headline today: Bush: Eavesdropping Helps Save U.S. Lives
I saw this headline today, "Bush Eavesdropping Cures Cancer" but that doesn't mean I believe it. Why? Because it, just like the headline given above, is speculative poppycock meant to justify why the President broke his oath of office and issued orders to eavesdrop without first seeking warrants, thus violating the Constitution.

~Ulrika~
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Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
12-17-2005 15:38
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
By Peter Baker and Lexie Verdon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, December 17, 2005; 12:12 PM

President Bush today acknowledged that he had secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on international communications of Americans and other domestic residents with known links to al Qaeda.
[/size]

Before any hecklers highlight it and try to make an issue of it, I thought I'd address it first and preserve the steam of this thread.

If they really had known links to al Qaeda, what was stopping Bush from getting warrants? It's not like our vast bureaucracy has any shortage of rubber stamps. I'm eager to see these "known links."
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Lianne Marten
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Posts: 2,192
12-17-2005 15:42
Everyone is linked to Al Qaeda....



It's a further link than Kevin Bacon though, that's for sure.


:eek: Kevin Bacon is a terrorist!
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
12-17-2005 16:27
Would those be the same links to al qaeda that Iraq had? And are they known in the same way we knew Iraq had WMD? :rolleyes:

Bush's speech was hilarious. Nothing like admitting you took a big shit on our constitutional rights while claiming you're doing it to defend the constitution. "Oh, I know you want to play with your toy honey, but mommy's going to put it up here in the closet, so it will be safe and the bad people won't get it. Mommy's not throwing it away. You can have it back some time in the future. Mommy has to hide your toy to protect it." Too bad for Bush we're not toddlers.

This story will not end well ;)
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Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
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12-17-2005 16:41
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
I saw this headline today, "Bush Eavesdropping Cures Cancer" but that doesn't mean I believe it. Why? Because it, just like the headline given above, is speculative poppycock meant to justify why the President broke his oath of office and issued orders to eavesdrop without first seeking warrants, thus violating the Constitution.

~Ulrika~
Considering the content of the information released, I would say that the headline is a violation of any kind of journalistic ethics or standards. The first rule is to report the facts and not "spin" them. How can a title like that one be anything but an attempt to soft-peddle the story from the start?

There has been no release of information as to who was even spied on, let alone the reasons why it was done or the result of said spying. To title an article like that is just a lie. At the very least they are taking a wild supposition from the White House with no factual support as the centrepiece of the story.

By the same logic the Hrioshima bomb could have been reported as "Nuclear Explosion in Japan Saves Lives"
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Joy Honey
Not just another dumass
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 3,751
12-17-2005 18:47
Perhaps I should have made further comments about this headline: "Bush: Eavesdropping Helps Save U.S. Lives." He's desperate, so smoke and mirrors time once again - I wiped my ass with the Constitution but we may have stopped some terrorists.

Chance said it perfectly, if these people had "known links" to Al Qaeda, what was preventing them from getting warrants?
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
12-17-2005 19:49
From: Joy Honey
Perhaps I should have made further comments about this headline: "Bush: Eavesdropping Helps Save U.S. Lives." He's desperate, so smoke and mirrors time once again - I wiped my ass with the Constitution but we may have stopped some terrorists.

Chance said it perfectly, if these people had "known links" to Al Qaeda, what was preventing them from getting warrants?


Oh I figured that was why you posted it. :) I thought Chance's comment was right on too.

Here's an excellent article from today's Post. It's completely chilling, and at the same time fills me with joy that these things are finally being exposed, talked about, and understood for their true implications. It's about @#&%! time! We're only seeing the tip of the iceberg of this administration coming apart at the seams.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/17/AR2005121701233.html

here's a few choice bits...

From: someone
Bush's constitutional argument, in the eyes of some legal scholars and previous White House advisers, relies on extraordinary claims of presidential war-making power. Bush said yesterday that the lawfulness of his directives was affirmed by the attorney general and White House counsel, a list that omitted the legislative and judicial branches of government. On occasion the Bush administration has explicitly rejected the authority of courts and Congress to impose boundaries on the power of the commander in chief, describing the president's war-making powers in legal briefs as "plenary" -- a term defined as "full," "complete" and "absolute."


That's pretty convenient when engaged in a "war" without end where anyone can be declared an "enemy combatant" or "suspected terrorist" or "person of interest." The United States has a King George.

From: someone
In November, The Post disclosed an exponentially growing practice of domestic surveillance under the USA Patriot Act, using FBI demands for information known as "national security letters." Created in the 1970s for espionage and terrorism investigations, the letters enabled secret FBI review of the private telephone and financial records of suspected foreign agents. The Bush administration's guidelines after the Patriot Act transformed those letters by permitting clandestine scrutiny of U.S. residents and visitors who are not alleged to be terrorists or spies.The Post reported that the FBI has issued tens of thousands of national security letters, extending the bureau's reach as never before into the telephone calls, correspondence and financial lives of ordinary Americans. Most of the U.S. residents and citizens whose records were screened, the FBI acknowledged, were not suspected of wrongdoing.

The burgeoning use of national security letters coincided with an unannounced decision to deposit all the information they yield into government data banks -- and to share those private records widely, in the federal government and beyond. In late 2003, the Bush administration reversed a long-standing policy requiring agents to destroy their files on innocent American citizens, companies and residents when investigations closed.


From: someone

"There is a lot of discussion out there that we shouldn't be dividing Americans and foreigners, but terrorists and non-terrorists," said Gordon Oehler, a former chief of the CIA's counterterrorist center who served on last year's special commission assessing U.S. intelligence.

By law, according to University of Chicago scholar Geoffrey Stone, the differences are fundamental: Americans have constitutional protections that are enforceable in court.

"The general rule of surveillance -- wiretapping -- is that it must be done with a warrant and probable cause," he said. "The Fourth Amendment requires that and the Supreme Court has rejected the claim that the government can ignore that just because it's involved in a national security situation."

Bush's assertion that eavesdropping takes place only on U.S. calls to overseas phones, Stone said, "is no different, as far as the law is concerned, from saying we only do it on Tuesdays."


The truly disgusting thing is that anyone with half a brain saw this shit coming from a mile away four years ago. At least now people are starting to wake up.
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Corwin Weber
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12-17-2005 20:01
From: Chip Midnight
The truly disgusting thing is that anyone with half a brain saw this shit coming from a mile away four years ago. At least now people are starting to wake up.


While I agree and I'm glad to see it...... but I still have to wonder where all these people were a year and a half ago....
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
12-17-2005 20:33
From: Corwin Weber
While I agree and I'm glad to see it...... but I still have to wonder where all these people were a year and a half ago....


Maybe this has something to do with it...

From: someone
"Republican Congresses tend to overinvestigate Democratic administrations and underinvestigate their own," said Davis, who added that he has tried to pick up some of the slack with his committee. "I get concerned we lose our separation of powers when one party controls both branches.

"Democrats on the committee said the panel issued 1,052 subpoenas to probe alleged misconduct by the Clinton administration and the Democratic Party between 1997 and 2002, at a cost of more than $35 million. By contrast, the committee under Davis has issued three subpoenas to the Bush administration,two to the Energy Department over nuclear waste disposal at Yucca Mountain, and one last week to the Defense Department over Katrina documents.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/17/AR2005121700992.html


This is what happens when there's no congressional oversight. Congress needs to be held equally responsible. It's high time to clean house.
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Zuzu Fassbinder
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Join date: 17 Sep 2004
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12-17-2005 20:56
From: Chip Midnight
This is what happens when there's no congressional oversight. Congress needs to be held equally responsible. It's high time to clean house.


Perhaps they decided to use the other definition of the word "oversight".
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Surreal Farber
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12-17-2005 20:57
Didn't the NYT's article say that they had sat on the story for 9 months? What's up with that?
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Kazuo Murakami
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12-17-2005 21:06
From: Surreal Farber
Didn't the NYT's article say that they had sat on the story for 9 months? What's up with that?


The New York Times is screwing up?

:eek:

(Shock And Awe)
Jeffrey Gomez
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Join date: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,522
12-17-2005 22:02
Not that I'm frankly surprised - but.


What I am surprised by is the fact no one, and I mean no one, has the balls to seriously move forward with an impeachment hearing. Forget this sociopolitical fluff for a moment - a president can be impeached for a blowjob and eavesdropping on a democratic national committee meeting, yet everyone is going to sit on their hands for him approving spying on average Americans without due process? And saying, in front of the camera, dead serious, he'll continue to do so?


This tells me all of one thing: it's not worth due process up in Washington unless it's happening to someone in power. Oop - he's spying on us, folks. Better kick him out of office. But no... if he's spying on everyone else, it must be okay, right?


Right?

*sigh*


Why are the leaders in Washington such cowards?
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Chip Midnight
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12-18-2005 07:11
From: Jeffrey Gomez
What I am surprised by is the fact no one, and I mean no one, has the balls to seriously move forward with an impeachment hearing.


Give it time. I think it mostly depends on how the public responds to these revelations. If there's widespread outrage then I won't be surprised to see an impeachment. If the public buys into the bullshit and there's no perceived political advantage to bringing him down congress will roll over and play dead. If the public freaks, Republicans will be falling all over themselves to distance themselves from the administration.
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12-18-2005 07:25
Even noted conservative George Will took issue with GW this morning. Amazing to me is that more Americans aren't alarmed at this. What's becoming of this country?
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Chance Abattoir
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Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
Not the fact that he was doing it, but the DISCLOSURE is shameful.
12-19-2005 10:57
From: W
“It was a shameful act for someone to disclose this important program in a time of war. The fact that we’re discussing this program is helping the enemy”


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10530417/
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Bill Diamond
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Join date: 22 Mar 2005
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Bush isn't the only one....
12-19-2005 11:11
For those of you with short-term memory loss....

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/18/221452.shtml


From: someone


Clinton NSA Eavesdropped on U.S. Calls



During the 1990's under President Clinton, the National Security Agency monitored millions of private phone calls placed by U.S. citizens and citizens of other countries under a super secret program code-named Echelon.

On Friday, the New York Times suggested that the Bush administration has instituted "a major shift in American intelligence-gathering practices" when it "secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without [obtaining] court-approved warrants."

But in fact, the NSA had been monitoring private domestic telephone conversations on a much larger scale throughout the 1990s - all of it done without a court order, let alone a catalyst like the 9/11 attacks.

In February 2000, for instance, CBS "60 Minutes" correspondent Steve Kroft introduced a report on the Clinton-era spy program by noting:



"If you made a phone call today or sent an e-mail to a friend, there's a good chance what you said or wrote was captured and screened by the country's largest intelligence agency. The top-secret Global Surveillance Network is called Echelon, and it's run by the National Security Agency."

NSA computers, said Kroft, "capture virtually every electronic conversation around the world."

Echelon expert Mike Frost, who spent 20 years as a spy for the Canadian equivalent of the National Security Agency, told "60 Minutes" that the agency was monitoring "everything from data transfers to cell phones to portable phones to baby monitors to ATMs."

Mr. Frost detailed activities at one unidentified NSA installation, telling "60 Minutes" that agency operators "can listen in to just about anything" - while Echelon computers screen phone calls for key words that might indicate a terrorist threat.

The "60 Minutes" report also spotlighted Echelon critic, then-Rep. Bob Barr, who complained that the project as it was being implemented under Clinton "engages in the interception of literally millions of communications involving United States citizens."

One Echelon operator working in Britain told "60 Minutes" that the NSA had even monitored and tape recorded the conversations of the late Sen. Strom Thurmond.
Still, the Times repeatedly insisted on Friday that NSA surveillance under Bush had been unprecedented, at one point citing anonymously an alleged former national security official who claimed: "This is really a sea change. It's almost a mainstay of this country that the NSA only does foreign searches."

Bill Diamond
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Join date: 22 Mar 2005
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12-19-2005 11:13
and...

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/19/114807.shtml


From: someone


Clinton Used NSA for Economic Espionage



During the 1990s, President Bill Clinton ordered the National Security Agency to use its super-secret Echelon surveillance program to monitor the personal telephone calls and private email of employees who worked for foreign companies in a bid to boost U.S. trade, NewsMax.com has learned.

In 2000, former Clinton CIA director James Woolsey set off a firestorm of protest in Europe when he told the French newspaper Le Figaro that he was ordered by Clinton in 1993 to transform Echelon into a tool for gathering economic intelligence.

"We have a triple and limited objective," the former intelligence chief told the French paper. "To look out for companies which are breaking US or UN sanctions; to trace 'dual' technologies, i.e., for civil and military use, and to track corruption in international business."

As NewsMax reported exclusively on Sunday, Echelon had been used by the Clinton administration to monitor millions of personal phone calls, private emails and even ATM transactions inside the U.S. - all without a court order.



The massive invasion of privacy was justified by Echelon's defenders as an indispensable national security tool in the war on terror.

But Clinton officials also utilized the program in ways that had nothing to do with national security - such as conducting economic espionage against foreign businesses.

In his comments to Le Figaro, Woolsey defended the program, declaring flatly: "Spying on Europe is justified."

"I can tell you that five years ago, several European countries were giving substantial bribes to export business more easily. I hope that's no longer the case."

During hearings in 2000 on the surveillance flap, Woolsey told Congress that in 1993 alone, U.S. firms obtained contracts worth $6.5 billion with the help of timely intelligence information.



"We collect intelligence on those efforts to bribe foreign companies and foreign governments into awarding an airport contract to a European firm rather than an American firm," Woolsey said in a 1994 speech, in quotes picked up by the New York Post.

Predictably, European officials were outraged by what they regarded as a massive abuse of the NSA's spying capacity.

"[This is] an intolerable attack against individual liberties, competition, and the security of states," complained Martin Bangemann, then-European commissioner for industry.

But the complaints went unheeded in Washington.

In 1996, President Clinton signed the Economic Espionage Act, which, according to the Christian Science Monitor, authorized intelligence gathering on foreign businesses.

"The Clinton administration has attached especial importance to economic intelligence, setting up the National Economic Council [NEC] in parallel to the National Security Council," the Monitor reported in 1999. "The NEC routinely seeks information from the NSA and the CIA," the paper continued, citing anonymous officials. "And the NSA, as the biggest and wealthiest communications interception agency in the world, is best placed to trawl electronic communications and use what comes up for US commercial advantage."

Logan Bauer
Inept Adept
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,237
12-19-2005 11:17
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
...without first seeking warrants, thus violating the Constitution.

~Ulrika~


The constitution? Don't you mean "that goddamned piece of paper?" ;P
Chance Abattoir
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12-19-2005 11:17
From: Bill Diamond
For those of you with short-term memory loss....


Precedence negates ethics. I love it.
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Bill Diamond
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Join date: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 98
12-19-2005 11:22
From: someone
Originally Posted by Chance Abattoir

Precedence negates ethics. I love it.


Yea...you're right. It's sooo much more important to spy on people for economic reasons than to stop another terrorist attack on our country.
Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
12-19-2005 11:25
From: Bill Diamond
Yea...you're right. It's sooo much more important to spy on people for economic reasons than to stop another terrorist attack on our country.


Straw man.

Billy sneaks into Mrs. Liberty's yard for a week and spies her taking a shower through her window. He gets away with it and tells Wally. Wally does the same the next week and gets caught.

Wally: "But... But... Billy did it last week."

Cop: "Oh, really? I guess we should let you off the hook rather than correct the problem."
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Bill Diamond
when all else fails...x=8
Join date: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 98
12-19-2005 11:31
The point is... This type of activity has been going on for a long time. People knew about it then, people know about it now.

The only reason anyone is making a stink about this is because it's President Bush doing it. If Clinton were still President & this was happening, everyone would be cheering the fact that we are being pre-emptive in stoping another major strike on our country (and DON'T tell me the media wouldn't be praising Clinton for the exact same activity).
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