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Experts debunk evolution

Phedre Aquitaine
I am the zombie queen
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,157
07-15-2006 09:20
Ahem. :D

From: someone
A Pensacola evangelist who owns the defunct Dinosaur Adventure Land in Pensacola was arrested Thursday on 58 federal charges, including failing to pay $473,818 in employee-related taxes and making threats against investigators.

Of the 58 charges, 44 were filed against Kent Hovind and his wife, Jo, for evading bank reporting requirements as they withdrew $430,500 from AmSouth Bank between July 20, 2001, and Aug. 9, 2002.

At the couple's first court appearance Thursday before U.S. Magistrate Judge Miles Davis, Kent Hovind professed not to understand why he is being prosecuted. Some 20 supporters were in the courtroom.

"I still don't understand what I'm being charged for and who is charging me," he said.

Kent Hovind, who often calls himself "Dr. Dino," has been sparring with the IRS for at least 17 years on his claims that he is employed by God, receives no income, has no expenses and owns no property.

"The debtor apparently maintains that as a minister of God, everything he owns belongs to God and he is not subject to paying taxes to the United States on money he receives for doing God's work," U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Lewis Killian Jr. wrote when he dismissed a claim from Hovind in 1996.

Hovind, an avowed creationist, has widely publicized his "standing offer" to pay $250,000 to anyone who can provide scientific evidence of evolution.

"No one has ever observed a dog produce a non-dog," Hovind once wrote in reply to a New York Times article.

In the indictment unsealed Thursday, a grand jury alleges that Kent Hovind failed to pay $473,818 in federal income, Social Security and Medicare taxes on employees at his Creation Science Evangelism/Ministry between March 31, 2001, and Jan. 31, 2004.

As part of the ministry, Hovind operated the Dinosaur Adventure Land at 5800 N. Palafox St., which included rides, a museum and a science center. He also sold literature, videos, CDs and other materials and provided lecture services and live debates for a fee.

The indictment alleges Kent Hovind paid his employees in cash and labeled them "missionaries" to avoid payroll tax and FICA requirements.

On Thursday, a message on the Dinosaur Adventure Land telephone welcomed visitors to the place "where dinosaurs and the Bible meet" and stated that the museum and science center were closed temporarily.

The indictment also says the Hovinds' made cash withdrawals from AmSouth Bank in a manner that evaded federal requirements for reporting cash transactions.

The withdrawals were for $9,500 or $9,600, just below the $10,000 starting point for reporting cash transactions.

Most of the withdrawals were days apart. For example, the indictment shows three withdrawals of $9,500 each on July 20, July 23 and July 26 in 2001.

The indictment also charges Kent Hovind with impeding an IRS investigation.

Among the ways he is accused of doing:

· Filing a frivolous lawsuit against the agency demanding damages for criminal trespass.

· Filing an injunction against an IRS special agent.

· Filing false complaints against the IRS for false arrest, excessive use of force and theft.

· Making threats against investigators and those cooperating with the investigation.

Judge Davis released the Hovinds from custody pending their trial, which will be scheduled during their arraignment at 2 p.m. Monday.

Over Kent Hovind's protests, the judge took away his passport and guns Hovind claimed belonged to his church.

Hovind argued that he needs his passport to continue his evangelism work. He said "thousands and thousands" are waiting to hear him preach in South Africa next month.

But Davis agreed with Assistant U.S. Attorney Michelle Heldmyer, who argued that "like-minded people" might secret Hovind away if he left the country.

As for the guns, Davis said "ownership was not the issue."

Kent Hovind also has had run-ins with state authorities.

In April, Circuit Judge Michael Allen ordered the buildings at Dinosaur Adventure Land closed because Hovind failed to obtain a building permit during the 2002 construction. The outdoor theme park was allowed to stay open.

Members of Creation Science Evangelism said at the time that building permits violated their "deeply held" religious beliefs.

While the building permit case was tied up in a four-year court battle, ownership of the theme park was turned over to Glen Stoll, who works with Hovind on legal issues and is based in Washington.

Last year, the U.S. attorney in Seattle filed a lawsuit against Stoll, charging him with encouraging people to avoid tax payments by claiming to be religious entities, according to news reports.
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From: Billybob Goodliffe
everyone loves phedre
(excluding chickens), its in the TOS :D
Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
07-15-2006 09:24
Kevn, I'm not sure why you continually want to subject yourself to embarrassment like this, but for this one post only I am willing to try to be reasonable. If you persist with nonsense like this, opening your mind so far your brains fall out, I'm afraid further replies to you are not going to be so kind. This kind of tripe makes me angry as a parent, because I see my children's education being endangered.

Dr. John Sanford, who seems to be the cornerstone figure in this Creationism conference, wrote a book called Genetic Entropy & the Mystery of the Genome . In it, he makes the outrageous claim that mutations actually contribute to entropy rather than genetic variation and thus undercut one of the basic tenets of evolutionary theory. (All this aside from the fact that his work is somewhat plagiarized from Lee Spetner's equivalent publications. Spetner was an information theorist, not a biologist).

I cannot begin to count how many ways he's wrong about this -- aside from his very unscientific use of selective data to support his point, anyone who works in genetics ought to just plain know better --- unless they're so emotionally invested in their faith that they cannot see reason when it smacks them in the face.

He makes the inaccurate statement that "mutation plus natural selection equals evolution" -- which is really only part of the formula. Genetic drift can also contribute to evolution, as can natural forces in the environment. And in fact, if mutations only caused entropy as he claims, I'm afraid Life would probably have died out on Earth hundreds of millions of years ago -- organisms would never have had the diversity to adapt to environmental pressure. He's ignoring the very clearly documented and observed evidence we have of genetic mutation occurring in nature in order to appease an emotional need to verify his religion.

Just a few examples of documented, observed mutations for your perusal:

* Mutations are commonly used by plant breeders to develop more robust strains of grain, etc.
* Hypermutable strains of Pseudomonas aeruginosa are found more commonly in the lungs of cystic fibrosis patients
* Crop pests develop resistance to insecticides; bacteria to antibiotics, cancer cells to chemotherapy, HIV to anti-retroviral drugs -- these are all examples of smaller-scale mutations we know occur very quickly.
* Using bacteria, mutations can be traced and observed over thousands of generations in a very short time (some work with ecoli has followed a strain for 10,000 generations) -- National Academy of Sciences report, 1999: "tremendous diversity accumulated within each population, such that almost every individual had a different genetic fingerprint after 10,000 generations."

That said, the nonsense referring to Young Earth Creationism is mind-boggling. Most Creationists have abandoned that line of "reasoning" (using the term loosely) years ago and have gone on to Stealth-Creationism, aka "Intelligent Design". At some point, I guess the weight of the evidence finally ground them down.

Bottom line: Dr. Sanford is as much of a complete and utter fraud as Kent Hovind. If you want to contend otherwise perhaps you can offer a few of Sanford's "proofs" that mutations contribute to entropy rather than genetic diversity. The REAL expert resources that will contradict him are easily available.
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Phedre Aquitaine
I am the zombie queen
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,157
07-15-2006 09:25
Cindy, he and his ilk don't view it as humiliation, because they honestly think that they're embattled martyrs against the hordes of atheistic oppressors.
_____________________
From: Billybob Goodliffe
everyone loves phedre
(excluding chickens), its in the TOS :D
Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
07-15-2006 09:29
From: Phedre Aquitaine
Cindy, he and his ilk don't view it as humiliation, because they honestly think that they're embattled martyrs against the hordes of atheistic oppressors.

All of my Christian friends who agree with me will find that amusing :)

What it boils down to, I think, are people who want to wedge their deity into a little tiny, confined niche of their own definition rather than admit that perhaps Nature is to be explored and appreciated for its astounding complexity without pre-conceptions.

Darwin had it exactly right, and the most amazing thing to me is that he had no knowledge of genetics in the 19th century -- yet every discovery since then has only added confirmation to his original work.
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Nemar Byrne
Registered User
Join date: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 17
07-15-2006 09:42
Artists rendering: An early whale ancestor devouring an early ancestor of a creationist:

http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/images/whal.amb.jpeg
Gabe Lippmann
"Phone's ringing, Dude."
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 4,219
07-15-2006 09:49
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go to Nocturnal Threads :mad:
Phedre Aquitaine
I am the zombie queen
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,157
07-15-2006 09:50
From: Cindy Claveau
All of my Christian friends who agree with me will find that amusing :)



All of mine do, too.
_____________________
From: Billybob Goodliffe
everyone loves phedre
(excluding chickens), its in the TOS :D
Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
07-15-2006 09:51
From: Nemar Byrne
Artists rendering: An early whale ancestor devouring an early ancestor of a creationist:

http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/images/whal.amb.jpeg

FURSECUTION!
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
07-15-2006 09:51
From: Phedre Aquitaine
Cindy, he and his ilk don't view it as humiliation, because they honestly think that they're embattled martyrs against the hordes of atheistic oppressors.
Yes, Cindy, be careful. He's also the flavor of troll that baits for personal attacks and then uses the AR button to retaliate. If you get him on a day when he's in a particularly persecutory mood, he'll read back the police blotter in the forum, speculating which one might have been his doing.

You're probably better off teaching your kids that there are just some folks who are irrational religious zealots.

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
07-15-2006 11:02
From: Kevn Klein

In his lecture, Sanford will show that if the evolutionary theory were true, then humans would be degenerating, not evolving, as a species.


He thinks humans AREN'T degenerating?

He must not get out much.
Dr Tardis
Registered User
Join date: 3 Nov 2005
Posts: 426
07-15-2006 11:18
From: Jopsy Pendragon
He thinks humans AREN'T degenerating?

He must not get out much.


It's been my theory for a while that for the last century or so, humanity has been selecting for stupidity and sloth.

Think about it: poor, dumb people will have like 10 kids. Smart, rich people usually have one or two.

the balance is naturally going to gravitate toward the people who reproduce the most.
Almarea Lumiere
Registered User
Join date: 6 May 2004
Posts: 258
07-15-2006 11:46
From: Chronic Skronski
Eyes wide open, people.
Thank you.

Creation science isn't just bad science, it's bad theology.

Romans 1:19-20

"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made."

God did not create a universe which appears to be something different than what it actually is.

Therefore, the Earth is four billion years old and all creatures descended from a common ancestor. This is the reason that the Catholic church (one of the most intellectually rigorous of the Christian sects) has accepted evolution and holds Genesis to be allegory. Nothing else fits the testimony (just an old-fashioned word for "evidence";) of God's creation.

I say it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for an opinionated man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

--Allie
Jennyfur Peregrine
Whatever
Join date: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,151
Nuff Said
07-15-2006 11:51


PS Sorry its so big.
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Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
07-15-2006 12:15
From: Dr Tardis
It's been my theory for a while that for the last century or so, humanity has been selecting for stupidity and sloth.

Think about it: poor, dumb people will have like 10 kids. Smart, rich people usually have one or two.

the balance is naturally going to gravitate toward the people who reproduce the most.


Sadly, this is true.

Plus, dont forget, a good christian shouldnt be using ANY form of birth control. So expect more of them to appear.
Sally Rosebud
the girl next door
Join date: 3 May 2005
Posts: 2,505
07-15-2006 14:32
White, pure white....
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Olympia Rebus
Muse of Chaos
Join date: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,831
07-15-2006 16:32
From: Jennyfur Peregrine


PS Sorry its so big.


It was worth it. :D
Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
07-15-2006 18:26
From: Kevn Klein


STARKVILLE - "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," and 6,000 years later, according to a society at Mississippi State University, scientists will gather to prove it.



This is where you lost credibility. REAL scientists don't chase fairy tales. Heres another thought though.. What if they happen to prove the bible was wrong?
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Einsman Schlegel
Disenchanted Fool
Join date: 11 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,461
07-15-2006 19:09
I am a MONKEY and damn proud of it!!!
Vares Solvang
It's all Relative
Join date: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 2,235
07-15-2006 19:20
From: Jonas Pierterson
Heres another thought though.. What if they happen to prove the bible was wrong?



I have actually done that for Kevn, and of course he just brushed it off as not important.
Siro Mfume
XD
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 747
07-16-2006 01:08
From: Vares Solvang
I have actually done that for Kevn, and of course he just brushed it off as not important.


ditto
Michael Seraph
Second Life Resident
Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 849
07-16-2006 03:51
From: Vares Solvang
I have actually done that for Kevn, and of course he just brushed it off as not important.



Me too. I just pointed out that the First Chapter of Genesis contradicts the Second Chapter of Genesis. If the Bible was literally true it couldn't contradict itself. And if the writers of the Bible intended for people to believe it was literally true, they wouldn't have had the very first chapter of the very first book be contradicted by the second chapter of the same book. I mean, you'd expect somebody to at least get as far as chapter two, wouldn't you?
Devlin Gallant
Thought Police
Join date: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 5,948
07-16-2006 05:28
From: Briana Dawson
LOL 6000 years.

Oh yea, that stuff called "carbon dating" is totally bunk. All those dinosaur fossils fell to the earth inside meteors and stuff (see, the planet with the dinosaurs was your gods experimental planet and they really weren't here) about.......6000 years ago. :rolleyes: LOL

But really.. there are other christian groups that will say the Earth is millions of years old and that dinosaurs were left out of the bible because god found their inclusion unnecessary.

No matter what is said they have all the angles covered.

Briana Dawson


The original word in the Hebrew language was not 'create'. That is a mistranslation. The correct translation would be 'organize'. So, instead of creating the world out of nothing God may have just taking materials that were already there and reused them. I suspect neither side (Evolutionists vs Creationists) like that idea.
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
07-16-2006 05:34
From: Michael Seraph
Me too. I just pointed out that the First Chapter of Genesis contradicts the Second Chapter of Genesis. If the Bible was literally true it couldn't contradict itself. And if the writers of the Bible intended for people to believe it was literally true, they wouldn't have had the very first chapter of the very first book be contradicted by the second chapter of the same book. I mean, you'd expect somebody to at least get as far as chapter two, wouldn't you?

Mike, my buddy, you must realize I have never suggested I support either the old or young earth theories. If you ever read my posts you would know I have also never stated the Bible must be taken literally or not.

I post articles to get reactions. When I post an article it doesn't mean I agree with it in whole or even in part, unless I say I agree with this part or that part.

See how that works, you read what I say I believe rather that making assumptions... It works better that way. :)
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
07-16-2006 06:28
From: Kevn Klein
I post articles to get reactions. When I post an article it doesn't mean I agree with it in whole or even in part, unless I say I agree with this part or that part.


QFT!

Kevn admits to being a troll!
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I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Magnum Serpentine
Registered User
Join date: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 1,811
07-16-2006 06:29
From: Kevn Klein
Mike, my buddy, you must realize I have never suggested I support either the old or young earth theories. If you ever read my posts you would know I have also never stated the Bible must be taken literally or not.

I post articles to get reactions. When I post an article it doesn't mean I agree with it in whole or even in part, unless I say I agree with this part or that part.

See how that works, you read what I say I believe rather that making assumptions... It works better that way. :)


What are you trying to do then?
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