What's so wrong about murder?

I've seen a thread on here that seemed to keep bringing up argument "but it's murder".


Well... what's wrong with murder? Clearly you just can't go killing people randomly, but with the right paper work or authority you allow murder all the time.

Is killing animals murder?

Is killing innocent Iraqi's murder?

Is shooting your hunting buddy in the face murder if he didn't announce himself?

Is taking a person from a cell block, tying them down, putting them to sleep and stopping their heart murder?

Is a cop killing a burglar murder?

Is withstanding these open-ended posts that never seem to stop murder?


A similar topic was raised before so a poll has been included.

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No. They aren't people.

Depends which side of the war your on In short, no, I don't believe war counts as "murder" in the strictest sense. I'm not excusing it, I just don't think its the same thing.

No, because he didn't die. Besides, murder requires intent.

In the strictest sense, yes.

Depends. Did the burgler aim a gun at the cop? If so, no, it's self defense. If not, it may be, depending on the situation.

No, but posting them is.

what a cop out

cognative dissonence possibly linked to wanting to avoid the whole "thou shalt not kill" thing while being a good little disciple of capitalism and the wars that support it

what part of "innocent" don't you understand?

just because your "freedom loving" government commits or orders the commission of murder does not make it something else other than murder

you can sanitize it and call it collateral damage until your red white and blue in the face but when you kill an innocent you are breaking the laws. "I was only following orders" didn't work at N-Berg at it doesn't wash today either

and btw, only the congress has the power to declare war. when was the last time they did so and what does your answer have to do with the question?

Well, technically murder is ulawful killing, so for each thing it depends on what the law is where you are.

Whether each of the things or moral or not - that's up to each person to decide for themselves.

That's all there is to say on the subject, you can carry on discussing morals and trying to alter each other's opinions on them now.

Because a war is a war between soldiers, in which innocents die, rather than a case of an innocent being a deliberate target. You're not going to get anything more incriminating out of me on that, my viewpoint is actually pretty simple. War is terrible, but it's not the same thing as murder. I don't believe in muddying the language any further.

unless you have answered the following question you are dodging the issue and have given another cop out

That's not the issue though I'm not dodging the question and copping out, I'm avoiding thread derailment due to your love of my operatic voice.

Since you fastidiously ignore anything I say that doesn't fit your worldview of me, I don't see what else I can do.

I'll bite and answer your question however. The last formally declared "war" was in 42. The last formally declared "millitary engagement" was in 2002. If you want to split hairs about the difference between a "war" and a "military engagement", start your own thread, because that's not what this thread is about.

your validation of murder on the grounds of "war" has been proven misdirection and not on topic at all, yet you accuse me of derailing

my spider sense sees through your misdirection

we were not killing iraqis (that I know of) in 42

I'm not validating murder. Once again, you deliberatly re-write anything I say to fit your world view of me. For someone who wants to sue me for libel, you might want to cut that out

I'm not even validating war, or did you just ignore the fact that I said it's pretty terrible?

What I said is that I do not consider it *murder* in the strictest sense. Historicly the word has had a different connotation, and I don't belive in screwing up the language just to to fit the modern political climate.



Oh, probably a few.

So thus the best way to prevent all murder is to just keep it all legal!

Blueman, you're a genius! Why hasn't anybody thought of that before?

It's all fun and games until we go extinct

If it caused us to become extinct it'd be for the better.

I dunno. I think the world might get too idealic without us mucking things up.

The map is not the territory...

Your validation of murder is war. While your validation, to some, may justify the killing of Germans, Japanese, and their helpers in WW2, it has 100% nothing to do with the innocent Iraqi referenced in the OP. (incidently, I see the topic as a clarification on the line between murder and authorized killing and how it meshes with the sticky morality question)



Nor will I allow your accusations on linguistics and politics to give you an exit strategy from your insane claim that the killing of an innocent is A-Ok in an invasion and occupation from a legal and moral basis

if you are OK with killing innocent humans to keep your McWayofLife, I am very glad I am not on your side



i meant for sport, and to show off our 1337 milatarying skillz by having a "war on two fronts"

You know, the whole "Bully on the Block*" philiosophy*

(* special thanks to Colin Powell for summerizing the neocons view of the role of the US in the world)

Reminds me of that scene in Star Wars when the Death Star blows up Alderon merely as a demonstration of the power and might of the Imperial Army

Seriously, read the pdf

cheney ghost wrote it, after all

cross check the contributors on the main page vs the current regime

I couldn't make this shit up

Again, point to where I said "A-Ok"? Or even "alright"?

Before you accuse me of changing what you say, stop putting words in my mouth.

War is always terrible. It is, on occasion, the lesser of two terrible choices, but it's always terrible.

well then support your justification of killing innocent Iraqis with another reason besides a 1942 declaration of war!!!!

And I would love to hear how the PNAC doc fits in with your worldview of what we were really trying to accomplish killing all those innocent Iraqis

and while we are at it, please explain how the definitions of the words "patriotism" and "nationalism" differ

see, we are "patriotic." they are "nationalistic." why is nationalistic negative (as in obsticles mentioned early prior to the the Iraq invasion, "the strong nationalism of the Iraqis would be hard to overcome"?

and why is it we didn't declare war? What is the difference and why was one choice made over the other. In fact, we have killed hundreds of thousands in "military operations" over the years, why have we not dignified the deaths by declaring them wars instead of "conflicts"

we have destroyed Iraq, and we don't even have the decency to bestow honor to the "nationalists" who defended their motherland from invaders by acknowledging their sacrifice as a "war" for their people

explain that!

is it because they don't want to do the paperwork?

Does a Bully declare war or conduct military operations?

don't play the language game with me, your evading will get you no where except called on it. That is why I am so keenly aware of the tricks the current regime is pulling, simply by distorting language and manipulating emotional response

studying the use of that sort of trickery is kind of like a hobby of mine as well as part of my business;

Marketing and PR

Heh. I'm really curious how six people (so far) can say that capital punishment is murder but abortion isn't.

So, partial birth abortion, or even just an abortion of an unborn child that could probably have survived given a chance, isn't killing?

Someone please send me a sample of the drugs you are sniffing, they must reaaaally be good! I'm going to need it for when this thread turns into the semantic argument that it's destined to be. (On second thought maybe I just won't click.)

Why is it you want me to explain everything to you? Can't you do your own homework?



Considering I did no such thing, I don't see how I can support it. Boy howdy you got me there, I can't support something I in no way even implied!



I'm waiting for you to tell me what my world view is, since apparently my opinion on the subject doesn't matter.



When have I ever said that?



I have no idea, why don't you ask the people who made the descisions? But that's a much broader reaching issue than the current administration... We've been declaring "military operations" for longer than we've been declaring war.



What's to explain? I don't consider what we're doing anything other than war, regardless of what it's formally called.



I don't think theres anything you can do in our government that doesn't involve a lot of paperwork.



Either or both.



I don't consider language a game, far from it. Language is second to holy to me, I'm an english major.



I'd love to see an example of your work.

Cheerfully retracted!

You're six people now? I think Garoad was talking about the poll.

I was talking about the poll!