Stop everyone from trying to call our troops home before mission is done

The difficulty is, Kurgan, that dreadful genocide was more than fifty years ago, and the palestinians had no part in it.

And the only people who will agree with you on what is "Israeli land" are those who believe God said so. If you can imagine for a moment being me, a person who doesn't believe in the bible at all, you must surely see that I think that taking this land is morally wrong. I apply the ordinary rules of moral behaviour to this (to me) ordinary land.

You do see that it must all look different from the non-believers point of view, don't you ? This "whose land is it" issue? Looks quite different to me. Which is, I guess, the essence of the problem, and why it is so easy for us to disagree. Which is very sad. But how can either of us avoid it ?

To me it is ordinary land, and ordinary theft. To you it is the most special land in the world, pregnant with awesome significance and obligation. No theft at all. Just obedience to your God.

What on earth can we do? We can strive to respect and appreciate each others point of view, and that helps us. But it doesn't help solve the actual problem on the ground, does it. I have to tell you, I'm really upset about the whole thing, as you can doubless tell from how I post on it. But what to do ?

OK I admit that I am confused by these last few posts. Remove who from what land?

I think, Susie, that the reference is to the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. It looks so diferent to different people. To me, a non-believer, it's a tiny spark of justice and hope. To those removed, a betrayal of a sacred duty to their God. How can such a gulf be bridged ?

(see last sentence of post 69, Susie)

Is this a note to self about yourself?

The difficulty is, Kurgan, that dreadful genocide was more than fifty years ago, and the palestinians had no part in it.

And the only people who will agree with you on what is "Israeli land" are those who believe God said so. If you can imagine for a moment being me, a person who doesn't believe in the bible at all, you must surely see that I think that taking this land is morally wrong. I apply the ordinary rules of moral behaviour to this (to me) ordinary land.

You do see that it must all look different from the non-believers point of view, don't you ? This "whose land is it" issue? Looks quite different to me. Which is, I guess, the essence of the problem, and why it is so easy for us to disagree. Which is very sad. But how can either of us avoid it ?

To me it is ordinary land, and ordinary theft. To you it is the most special land in the world, pregnant with awesome significance and obligation. No theft at all. Just obedience to your God.

What on earth can we do? We can strive to respect and appreciate each others point of view, and that helps us. But it doesn't help solve the actual problem on the ground, does it. I have to tell you, I'm really upset about the whole thing, as you can doubless tell from how I post on it. But what to do ?

You all wouldnt be brain washed liberals

Boys and girls, as far as wars go. This one is pretty weenie.

This is war lite.

Wait till it comes to your street.

More people die is the US form drunk driving, or Katrina then in the middle east.

Those beings have been slaughtering each other ( and others) for 1000s of years.

If your parents would have stood up to the bad elememts in the 60s and we would have finshed the job in Vietnam.

You all wouldnt be brain washed liberals

The only thing worse than a liberal is someone who leaves an apostrophe out of a contraction. You, sir, are dead to me.

~Ulrika~

Its no good Ulrika. I have to say it. I think I love you. The "sir" is the crowning glory.

Do you think that possible? And if so, do you think he would live long if he went back to Iraq?

I am ashamed to say it, but if it involves the good ol US loosing something (like oil), it does not matter who is in office, something will be done. You don't see us taking out other monsters around the world. I don't know if you are from the US, but this little price hike in gasoline had everyone in an uproar. Imagine what would happen if *gasp* we lost all of our oil. Our government would act unilaterally.

Yes, it is possible he could win. They are basing the case on circumstances where Saddam was legally in power performing his elected duties. If we had the Portuguese (just because) invade Texas and depose Bush while he was in power there, and put him on trial, it would be the same kind of thing except for numbers. The numbers are important, but the authority is the same. Iraq does not have a good case against Saddam and Texas does not have a good case against Bush. What's worse is if Saddam wins, we look like complete and utter morons for invading in the first place. Do we pay reparations or what?

Now, is it likely someone might try to kill Saddam? About as likely as someone might try kill Bush, were he unprotected at some point I would suppose. Neither are popular figures and as such, there's bound to be a group that would go for it given the chance.

I am fairly certain the U.S. Government itself did not have any corporate oil interests in the middle east. It does supply itself with a surplus, but that surplus will last the Government decades if current supply evaporated suddenly. So no, we (I am from the US) have no interest in oil abroad. Also, as covered a few months ago, oil usage could be replaced completely with other sources with existing technology.

Which brings me back to; What are my friends dying in Iraq for?

Boys and girls, as far as wars go. This one is pretty weenie.

This is war lite.

Wait till it comes to your street.

More people die is the US form drunk driving, or Katrina then in the middle east.

Those beings have been slaughtering each other ( and others) for 1000s of years.

If your parents would have stood up to the bad elememts in the 60s and we would have finshed the job in Vietnam.

You all wouldnt be brain washed liberals

Boys and girls, as far as wars go. This one is pretty weenie.

This is war lite.

Wait till it comes to your street.

More people die is the US form drunk driving, or Katrina then in the middle east.

Those beings have been slaughtering each other ( and others) for 1000s of years.

If your parents would have stood up to the bad elememts in the 60s and we would have finshed the job in Vietnam.

You all wouldnt be brain washed liberals

Boys and girls, as far as wars go. This one is pretty weenie.

This is war lite.

Wait till it comes to your street.

More people die is the US form drunk driving, or Katrina then in the middle east.

Those beings have been slaughtering each other ( and others) for 1000s of years.

If your parents would have stood up to the bad elememts in the 60s and we would have finshed the job in Vietnam.

You all wouldnt be brain washed liberals

Boys and girls, as far as wars go. This one is pretty weenie.

This is war lite.

Wait till it comes to your street.

More people die is the US form drunk driving, or Katrina then in the middle east.

Those beings have been slaughtering each other ( and others) for 1000s of years.

If your parents would have stood up to the bad elememts in the 60s and we would have finshed the job in Vietnam.

You all wouldnt be brain washed liberals

If SH wins his trial, goes back to his people, runs for President, and wins on his own merits should we object if their populace clearly isn't?

I am starting to really hate all these commercials that use the body count of our brave soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines that are in harms way over in Iraq to try and force the President to bring them home. Yes it is the largest number we have seen since vietnam, but this is not vietnam. For one the government we are forming will be more stable than the south vietnamese government who had at one time 13 presidents in something like 1 year. On a second note, if we leave iraq without completeing the mission, Al Qaeda will perceive that we do not have the courage to fight the hard fight and win. If you support moveon.org please tell them to never show their commercial saying the names of those that have given the ultimate sacrifice in service of their country to force a political agenda. That does not honor those that have died.

Ok you say how the reasons for the war were a lie right? How come it wasn't just the United States saying that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction. This Includes the British, The United Nations, The Russians, The Clinton Administration, The Senate Intelligence Commitee of which John Kerry was on. All of these saw Intelligence data that would give someone the conclusion of a WMD program in Iraq.

As For Al Qaeda following different leaders at the drop of the hat. That is not the norm for them. They will follow their leaders and the orders that come from them. The foreign fighters are also unpopular in the Domestic Insurgency in Iraq. The Al Qaeda forces want to create a religious state in Iraq that will spread through out the Region. The Ultimate goal is to Destroy Israel and have the entire Arabian Peninsula, Iran, Syria, Jordan, and Israel as one large State that is similar to the brutal Taliban Regime that was in power in Afghanistan.

As for your loss of a friend, I do sympathize with you. I am currently in the service and watch the names that come back. I have been lucky to not see friends names, but my friends have not gotten out as lucky for they have seen friends in their units fall. I also have worked along side those coming back from Iraq. Those that I have talked with want this mission to be completed honorably, not in cowardice because public opinion says we should leave.

If this was a push for oil, we could just as easily taken over Iran for this, especially when we already are in a Country bordering them and there would possibly be numerous nations that would support us with Iran and regime change, and Iran has vast deposits of Oil as well.

As for incentives from Iraq for soldiers as far as pay is concerned, yes the medical care needs to be improved but the soldiers going over get large pay increases and they are tax exempt as well. The Congress has passed and has also increased the life insurance policy for soldiers to 400,000 in the unfortunate event that they do lose their life.

It's hard to come up with a best solution at this point because it's a cocked up mess. More international involvement in getting the infrastructure up and running, transitioning government and policing to Iraqis would be a good start. An intelligent plan to phase out U.S. involvement.

If your parents would have stood up to the bad elememts in the 60s and we would have finshed the job in Vietnam.

My point was, it was way over simplified. There are a lot more engaging things to look at.

If we leave now, with the mess we have created, do we expect to be attacked the next month or the next day?

If we back down now, who is to stop another leader like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad from taking SH's place? If they take out Israel, who is next. If the world turns a blind eye (which the US just might bourne out of humiliation if we left now), how many other countries will be attacked?

Really? Most would have thought 911 was impossible too. The one thing you can not defeat is a suicide bomber. The only reason Israel is still there (well, I have my own theistic belief here, but discounting that) is the suicide bombers have not coordinated themselves properly. It is not too much of a leap to imagine 100 people who have moled their way in lighting up Israel all at once with dirty bombs. There seems to be a world cry for Jews to be ousted from power, does there not? How many of those calling for such would be willing to give up their lives for this to happen?

SH's trial has been rigged more than a trapeze act

it is a dog and pony show of the highest order

no access to legal advice for a year, a team of US selected "judges,"

we saw the images of the statue falling. It won't be long until we see SH hanging

and I don't think SH was a good guy, but if he was as bad as is alleged, there would be no reason to fix this trial

and as far as running for office again, his defense is that he is STILL the president of Iraq. I don't think it will work, but it is the best defense he has