US Military Killed In Iraq

Third Anniversary of Iraq War -

Updated 3/19/2006:
US Military combat causalities in Iraq - 2,313
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Civilians killed - estimate 30,000+
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...and then the partisan bickering began.

You can pay your respects to the US and non-US fallen soldiers, as well as all of the non-military deaths (Iraqi civilians, journalists, aid workers, and other foreign civilians) at the Iraqi War Memorial in Ganymede.

L$ denominated donations are accepted, with proceeds going to both the Armed Services Relief Trust (provide aid to the families of the fallen soldiers) and the International Red Cross (provide relief services to Iraqis).

Touch any of the marble spheres at the site for more information on the memorial and where your donations go.

- Ace

Originally Posted by Merwan Marker

As of 10/16/2004:

US Military combat causalities - 1,101
Civilians killed - estimate 10,00
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Number for killed civilians is low. I've seen it estimated as high as 16,000.

Define civilian.

Of course people get different estimates ov "civilian" deaths, even though their looking at the same lists.

I'm sure there are plenty of people that died in Iraq that some liberal counted as a "civilian" in spite of the fact that they were toting an AK-47 at the time of their death.

I wonder how many of the estimators are counting suicide bombers among the civilian death toll?

You are sure? Do you have any facts to back up such a claim?

*sigh*... I love all these "liberal conspiracy" theorists.

- Ace

Here's a consideration...

Number of US/Allied servicemembers killed (following/executing) the orders of their elected national leaders and his representatives (those military officers and NCOs in positions superior to those killed) - however many there are; you count them. I don't have time.

Number of civilians (however you choose to define that) killed during and since "the invasion" - name your own figure; whatever you come up with, I'll accept for the purpose of this argument.

Number of people in whatever status that died during Saddam's reign - I don't have a clue about accuracy because I can't count above 100,000 and I tried it once but quit after becoming bored with it.

Number of people in whatever status that would have died because of Saddam's reign had Saddam's reign not ended - there's no way of tellling but I would bet as much money as you want/as I have in real life it's more than have died since he was removed. My postulate here is based on the graves that have been found, the established fact that he gassed his own people, and statements from former "insiders" who have detailed how his reign was maintained.

Despite the conspiracy theories I love to track and laugh about, I have yet to hear any believable evidence that anything similar has ever occured in the US - staying in power/(elected) office through through death threats.

When I was in the military, my drill sargeant gave me this advice - "Consider yourself dead already. Your job now is to follow all legal orders. It's not to question the policy of the national leadership - doing so at the wrong time can/will get you killed. If I tell you 'see the hill, take the hill' I expect you to run charging forward into/through a hail of machine gun lead without question. For all you know, your charge is a diversion so that your compatriots in the service will survive. Your sacrifice will be noted but we will move on because of it." If current military members - and their families - don't understand that thought in its entirety then I feel sorry for them. Death happens. Some are avoidable. Not all are regrettable. Not all deaths have a purpose. All have some explanation of the facts of how and when. Few have any "real and acceptable" explanations of "why".

I don't count the numbers of the dead. It trivializes the dead. It dehumanizes them. OTOH, I don't overlook them... or use them as political tools in pointless rhetorical arguments.

I agree with you. Completely.

Iraq is almost safer than American cities...


CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- Despite a sharp drop in homicides, Chicago has regained a title it didn't want: America's murder capital.

The city finished 2003 with 599 homicides, police said Thursday. That was down from 648 a year earlier and the first time since 1967 that the total dipped below 600.

Still, the nation's third-largest city outpaced all others for the second time in three years. New York, with about three times the population, ended the year with 596 homicides. Los Angeles, which had the most murders in 2002 at 658, wound up 2003 with an estimated total just under 500.

In New York, the unofficial murder tally of 596 compared with 584 in 2002. That was a 2 percent jump but still made 2003 the city's second straight year below 600 -- dramatically less than the 2,245 homicides recorded in 1990.

Baltimore reported 271 killings in 2003, compared with 253 in 2002.



http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/01/city.murders.ap/


- tito

Talk about trivializing American military deaths in Iraq!

I am positive this is not what Tito meant.

War is not a pretty thing and I hope that this whole thing works out for the best in the end and makes all lives lost worth it in the end.

Regardless of what side of the spectrum you are on politically or socially you have to admit there are some homicidal maniacs out there that want to kill people for no other reason than because they arent of the right religeon or because they want something they cant have or because they are trying to force their beliefs on other people that dont agree.

As to wether or not this war was done correctly, I dont know, but that doesnt mean it shouldnt be fought to the best of our ability. Now is to late to question why because the power that held crap together there for so many years, no matter how brutal, is gone and the shit has hit the fan.

I used to think that these people bent on attacking other nations using terrorist tactics were doing it due to reasons that might be within our control. While some of these people may have actual grievences with the governments of the people they attack, I have discovered that many of the people are doing these things for VERY stupid reasons. One of these reasons I find rediculous is differences of moral opinion. Sorry to say, but most of this crap is from ""EXTREME"" Islamic factions... NOTE THE EXTREME>>>Not all are like this. """Some""" Chechens think that they should be a seperate country from Russia. MOST Chechens dont think so, but the few want to force their belief on the rest.. On top of that they do it by slaughtering children, when they should do it politically through campaigning and voting like civilized people.

I dont disagree that some of these people have been exploited by their and other world governments including our own (USA) and I dont really know for sure what the right solution is. I just hope that we truely think our hardest on every subject and do our best to be fair and honest in everything we do. I dont think everything was done to fulfill this obligation, but I hope we do our best in the future and dont ever misunderestimate the direness of the situation we're in.

My thoughts go out to all good people out there that have lost lives and loved ones.

Ok, I'm done

Not really. I got family and friends out there, Korg. I proudly served in the Army and most every male in my family has served in the US Armed Forces going back several generations. You will not find many stronger supporters of our military out there.

The issue is that like during Vietnam, military casualty numbers are being used for political purposes, not because people are truly concerned about individuals getting maimed or killed out there (and to be fair, the goverment doesn't give a hoot either). I much rather see people volunteering at Walter Reed or helping out military families as opposed to wasting time bitchin' about Bush or taking to the streets.

We obviously didn't learn our lessons from Vietnam. The government didn't and the love-peace-or-i-will-kill-you folks didn't. Caught in the middle are our soldiers. They are getting screwed from both ends once again.

It does not matter if Bush gets reelected or Kerry wins, we are in for the long term. We are there, too late to change that. Our responsibility as Americans is to make sure that we do everything in our power to ensure that it is the enemy that dies for his country, not our cousins, brothers, sisters, wives or friends.

But anyway, I was just trying to make a point that so many people are wasting so much energy bitching about the events in Iraq, while doing nothing about the serious problems we have with violence right at home. The murder figures I posted show we obviously have a huge problem with domestic terrorists. Terrorists are not all necessarily from the middle east and do not necessarily kill for political reasons. Why are people not out there bitching, protesting, raising hell and doing something about Americans being slaughtered in our own soil? I have my theories on that, but leave that for some other time.

-tito

Okay. I will try to clarify.

To trivialize is to make something appear smaller than it is. It is, by nature, an exaggeration or comparison of unlike things in order to make them appear the same or to make one appear more important than another.

I will never get in an argument over whether America's death rate due to crimes is more important than military deaths under any circumstances. Howeve, I feel the two topics are completely unrelated and cannot be compared in and real sense and, as such, shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath lest that comparison be drawn.

Tito, that you support and served in the military is something that is great. However, the mere act of drawing the comparison, in my view, trivializes those who have given their lives. I too am a military vet. I did serve during the Nam era. My politics don't enter into this discussion.... and I agree that since we are "over there" we need to deal with THAT.

Original===>>>But your original "news report" was presented without context. Perhaps you might have put it in context when first presenting it?? My mouth might not still have the bad taste about it that I do.

Edited ===>But THE original "news report" was presented without context. Perhaps it could have been put it in context when first presenting it?? My mouth might not still have the bad taste about it that I do.

Only so much you can do about any type of killing. It has and always will exist untill we find the gene that makes people get to that point and eliminate it...WONT HAPPEN.

The best we can do is discourage it and make sure people know there are consequences to violent action.

It's not exactly the same kind of killing when a soldier does it and when a mad, desperate, jealous or covetous person does it. A soldier can be ordered to stop. A criminal or crazy is under no control.

What I'm saying is that it's comparing apples and orangutans.

Hmm...over 1000 dead in Iraq. How many people in the U.S. have died from exposure or starvation during the same time? Funny how nobody posts their numbers (since its not such a political hot button...). How about deaths from alcohol related causes (car accidents/domestic violence)? These things were killing long before Bush took office, why then are the people who proclaim to be for peace and life so locked in to just the war in Iraq? There was/is ethnic cleansing in Rwanda, why not list their dead? Because they are not American? You listed the civilians in Iraq... Point being, don't mask political hyperbole behind an anti-war/pro-peace stance. Those 'brave and unfortunate soldiers who were dragged into an unneeded conflict and paid the ultimate price' didn't do so to give you a score to judge the country's success or failure in an endeavor. They did it because it was their duty. Like it or not (I know I don't), the war in Iraq is happening, if we pull out now the country will sink down even worse than Afghanistan under the Taliban. We shouldn't be there, but what is started by the politicians will always have to be finished by a bunch of poor boys and girls from Anytown, USA. Don't disrepect their memory by using their deaths to score FU points against a political party...wanna make change, VOTE...bring friends...participate.

Are you saying all money made goes to these funds?

If not Shame On You.

If so, that's a nice gesture.

Of course all the money goes to these funds. I'm not taking any of it for myself.

Well... actually, there is a third non-profit that these funds support, which is lunaville.org; the website that provides the data that I have displayed at the memorial. Its all explained in the info notecards that are dispensed there.

Its not really a nice gesture on my part. Its a nice gesture on the part of all who have contributed. So far, over L$20,000 has been raised, with US$30 already donated to each of these 3 organizations.

- Ace

At least our troops aren't getting spat on and called babykillers when they get back home this time...

Updated 10/25/2004:

US Military combat causalities - 1,105


Civilians killed - estimate 10,000

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Merwan.

I have to ask. Why, with this being an obviously sensitive topic to so many people, why do you insist on bringing this into the forums at all? It seems counter to so many other things you have posted about being considerate and getting along and such.

Why play with such a hot button topic even as obliquely/directly as printing the numbers you do... without comment?

I really tried to figure out a rationale other than you just want to stir something up.... I couldn't come up with one.

I am curious.

I have to ask. If people shouldn't bring obviously sensitive topics [sic] to an off-topic forum, where should they bring them? I am curious.

~Ulrika~

The numbers are simple facts, unlike the reasons behind the deaths in the first place.

You can feel how you want to about the death toll. It is what it is and postiing or not posting won't change it.

For me it comes down to three simple things.

1. Second Life, for me, is an escape. Any real world references - particularly those which relate to politics - destroy any semblance of the curtain between real life and second life - including in the forums. That's just me...

2. I really couldn't give a shit less about anyone else's politics here. OTOH, with a history of postings, various people establish "personalities" in the forums (which may be completely different from SL inworld or RL). A few people are obviously shit-stirrers. Merwan doesn't strike me that way - and this post/topic is one of those. It seems absolutely counter to what he has done before with calls for community when it is patently obvious without even posting that this post will not simply "sit there" quiietly but begs for argument.

3. Finally, there is not a damn thing that is going to be changed in the real world by any comments or posts here. So why waste the electrons? It's simply pointless. Activism on any subject may have its place - somewhere. I don't think that this is the place... simple as that. Just an opinion.

That said... I am going to try my best to avoid this and other similar threads as a waste of my time. Others are encouraged and entitled to choose what is worth their time and to act accordingly.

It's the off topic forum and this is factual off topic information.

If you are too sensitive to read this, then don't.

Typical Republicans wanting to suppress what they dislike.