It's about time, school soda sales to end

More power to you. I cared what would get me expelled. Can you tell me what you see as some of the reasons for the decline of US student ability when exiting the public school system nowadays?

Catholic schools are private. Watch me not care about private schools. I didn't go to school where you did, or when you did (and I feel blessed).

It certainly should begin at home, but you know the saying - it takes a community. It is the public school system's duty to aid parents in raising kids, there's no two ways about it, it a joint effort. If you read me carefully, I am placing blame on a lax and permissive society, and that includes parents as well.

And now you're getting all hyperbolic - removing over-commercialized, ADDICTIVE substances from facilities which educate minors is not "brainwashing". Holy mackerel, and you said I was engaging in logical fallacy!

If anything is "brainwashing" kids, it's soda companies which target them and bombard them constantly.

Soda in public schools is bad news, period, and I am glad the powers that be have seen that. Apparently, some folks can still see beyond instant gratification and further than ten minutes into the future.

May I point out that if your education system worked, then why is it that people from your generation are the ones who have turned the educational system in the USA into utter crap?

I cared what got me expelled to. The point is, what would get me expelled in your schools wont now-a-days. That's not bad inherently.



My school was an abomination, but not for the reasons your thinking.



See, THIS is where I disagree. That is NOT the school's job. That is the parent's job, first and always, and at most relatives and friends. NOT the school. The school is there to impart knowledge, and that is the beginning and end of their duties.



I never said removing soda was the brainwashing.



This is certainly true.



While I'm glad that our society has not totaly devolved into a protective "Save me from the evils of the outside world!" society of cowards and sheep who can't deal with their own problems.

Of course you're right about those things, and I am in 100% agreement! Why not start with the no-brainers, and work our way up? Enabling kids to have access to addcitive substances is a no-brainer, and easy to fix by saying "no". You've created a straw man here. I am fully in support of fixing all the problems our schools face today. Please don't villianize me by suggesting I don't care about the other issues because I think soda has no place in public schools, and I don't think this is a "feel-good" solution. There's more at stake here than just education too. There's health to consider, and we obviously have a problem when so many kids are overweight. So allowing them to suck soda all day long ain't helping.

That's great about your school's record, but didn't you say soda was not allowed there?

Could you quote those top ten reasons please? Are they Reitsuki's reasons or..?

See above.

Increase in Obesity Prevalence (%)
Among U.S. Adolescents (Ages 12 to 19)

1999 to 2000
	
Males 15.5
	
Females 15.5

1988 to 1994
	
Males 11.3
	
Females 9.7

1971 to 1974
	
Females 6.1
	
Females 6.2

Source: CDC, National Center for Health Statistics, National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey. Ogden et. al. JAMA. 2002;288:1728-1732.

The rates have DOUBLED since the 70s, and you think phy ed should be elective, and that soda and snacks should be allowed? You will doubtless say that the parents have to fix this - but you know what I will say in advance? Kids spend the majority of their awake time IN SCHOOL, under the supervision of other adults, most of whom are parents too, whom we have charged and entrusted with a large portion of the shaping of our kids. Parents can't be there to ensure that Johnny and Susie are doing as they told them.

Of course there are other, larger issues, but I personally think the candy and pop issue is symptomatic of those larger issues.

That's a fair question, and I will take a stab at it.

I think that the prosperity of the 90s and since has a lot to do with it.

As for it being "my" generation that's fucked it up - I can't agree that it is any one generation's fault. I lay blame on generations before, after, and during mine for allowing schools to degenerate into what they have now. You miss my point. Allowing too many freedoms in school is a shift that has occurred in the past 10 years or so. I don't care who is to blame, I want it fixed, and certainly not just the pop and candy issue - it's just the tip of the iceberg. Our schools suck, period. I wasn't laying blame at any one generation's feet, and if you interpreted it that way I apologize for not being more clear. There are a plethora of reasons,and we need to tackle them, one by one.

Why are you guys taking this personally?

I think if those phys ed programs had teachers who gave a damn and weren't teaching math classes (badly) on the side, it wouldn't be an issue to have snacks in school, because they'd be delivering a right proper education.

When it comes down to it, the failure of the school system is at the wallet, not the cafeteria. The failure of children's health comes from a lousy foundation at home, not because of a school system that presents dietary options at both ends of the spectrum. Additionally, modern schools breed depression, which is often compensed with food. Parents will send their children to school with the same foods you're applauding being removed, and nothing will change. If anything, you'll create a black market for sweets, there was one in my old middleschool.

I disagree. I leanred a lot more than just numbers and words from many of my teachers. They cared beyond just that. I still look back on some of the life lessons imparted upon me by some of them and marvel at their wisdom.

They were not robots. Hell, we may as well just eliminate teachers then, if all they are is part of an assembly line, which is a big part of what is wrong with the schools system right now - move 'em in, move 'em out. We can do that at computer terminals. Just Dew it.

Again, I return to my previous statement with health: That's the fat person's buisness, not yours. Nor is the amount of soda they may get in school the worst of the problem.



Anything short of knifing a guy in the parking lot was allowed in my school, actually, we just didn't sell anything because the people who ran the school were cheapasses.



I've already listed several, and could easily list ten before soda even started to creep onto the list, but what's the point? Of course they are my own reasons - any "ten reasons" list is just opinion, no matter what the source it comes from. However, having SEEN the harm that some of these other policies do, directly (Having felt it, even, when I transfered from public schools to private), I'm fairly confident of my list.



Yeah, pretty much. It would be more accurate to say, however, that I don't feel they should be forbidden. There is a difference there.



There's the difference, again, in our opinions. Schools do not have any buisness "shaping" children. They should impart facts, skills, and knowledge. Not opinions, behavior, and life lessons - those are the pervue of the parents. Only in EXTREME cases, where the parents have proven incapable of dealing with their children, and the child has devolved into juvinile criminal should the state step in to take over, and then at the expense of the parent. Either/or. Not both. The school will NOT be the co-father of my kid, in the unlikely event I ever have one.

I'm sorry, I will not bend on that issue, ever.



Yes. It's a SYMPTOM. Don't treat the SYMPTOM unless it's a fatal disease and you can't cure it - which I refuse to accept.

Good for you. My teachers until highschool were a bunch of lackwits and fuckups who were teaching because it was a secure job(which is another problem, if we're keeping a list). From what I've seen of the public schools around me, that's true for a lot of teachers - not all, but a lot. I don't want my kids learning from those people, asuming they have anything to teach in the first place.



This is comming from a person who intends to be a teacher when I say this - yes, exactly. Particularly at the early ages, say, k-8 or so, a child is too impressionable for "other" education. Those are formative years. These years are the responsibility of the parents, not the state.

I am taking this no more or less personally than I do any other law that tries to protect people from themself, or tries to take parental duties out of the hands of the parents.

No, because they (in my world) could still only have it at lunch time. I have nothing against kids having a soda with lunch - not in the least - but the rest need to wait til school's out. Apparently, I am not the only one who thinks this way, and thank the stars for that.

So, do you think we should just allow smoking in school too? I mean they're just going to sneak ciggies otherwise, right?

You wouldn't be able to (and this is the way it used to be in all public schools) walk around between classes or sit in class with a can of pop. Sure you COULD, until you were caught, something I saw happen at times when I was a teen. Rules are not a bad thing in a place of learning. Kids are also depressed because mommy and daddy let game boy, x-box, and DVD babysit, not because of school only. When they get no attention, disciplinary included, they don't feel wanted or cared about.

And yes, a big part of the failure is at the wallet - because school system administrators are highly overpaid, and the teachers severly underpaid. Fat cats sucking away $ from a proper education for our youth, so much so that schools have relied on the damned vending machines to subsisdize field trips.

At any rate, you aren't going to change my opinion, and I am laying blame at the feet of all Americans, not just one generation. We're becoming obese, detached, materialistic, self-interested, instant gratification addicts, among other things.

I'll let it rest on my end here, hopefully you understand where I stand, regardless of whether or not you agree, and I think we all agree there are huge problems in the schools that need to be fixed before it's too late, if it already isn't.

While I agree wholeheartedly with the ideal you espouse, I'll call pragmatism and note that while the parents ought be being parental, they often aren't as much so as one would like.

Insofar as the intent behind public education is an attempt to train children to be productive members of society, including complaisance to authority, exposure to crushing politics of human society, etc. schools probably ought not be implicitly advocating poor life habits particularly when they result from corporate kickbacks to public school systems. Unfortunately, these kickbacks are accepted by a small number of decision makers to the general detriment of their charges. Furthermore, public schools are legally acting in loco parentis (lit. "in the place of the parents" while the students are in their charge and so one could argue that they are abrogating that responsibility.

Then again, if the intended result of schooling is to equip children to be functioning members of society, perhaps teaching them mindless consumerism is most appropriate for the US.

Yeah, but that's a different topic...



Previously mentioned systems where parents can control what their child is allowed to buy at school come to mind. As electronic systems get more common, this will be even easier.




It doesn't teach them good taste though.

Next thing you'll want is to take away our coffee in our offices. Nice!

Oh really? Your tone suggests otherwise. You've been very snarky. You could have engaged me civilly, yet you chose to set the tone and insinuate that I have no fucking clue what I am talking about and that you have all the answers. You've insinuated that I don't care about the larger issues, and continue to do so, even after I've clarified. *shrugs*

I have an opinion. I am not about to bend over either because some patronizing twit can't see that I am saying that pop and candy aren't the the biggest issue, but are an issue none-the-less. You just don't get that this is simply going back to the way things were before it was allowed, not some new, draconian, non-think rule.

What you want is a educational factory - which is the fundamental flaw with the mentality of the school system today. I want a broad, well-rounded program, that goes beyond just facts and figures so that kids can be prepared for more than just reading and writing. It is partially the community's duty to help with that, despite your ultra-libertarian mindset.

Enough, you obviously want to argue, so I'll leave you to do that with the next taker.

Such has not been my intent - if you read anything other than general annoyance with "feelgood" legislation in general into my words, you're adding things to my posts that I didn't put there.



There are a lot of things we could go back to, not all of them are worth it. This is, in my opinion, one of them.



We disagree here.

Part of Nolan's arguement seems rather heavily based on the idea that pop is addictive.

Mind if I ask where that's proven? Aside from your own story about Surge, that is. Because I've drank surge, and although I used it as a kid to fuel very long nights, I don't crave it. I do, however, crave sushi, no matter how long it's been since my last 'hit' of it. Wanting/craving something and an addiction are two different things, one is very easily mastered by saying "Nah, I love that, but it's not good for me so I'll pass".

It's no more addictive than any other mildly pleasurable or tasty thing, sure, if you're never taught consequences or how to use some self restraint, you'll have a problem with it. But that's true for just about anything you could do.

As for the whole "What is a school's place in the world" debate you guys are in...

A school and it's teachers can help to influence kids and keep them from trouble, but only as a suppliment to active parenting. A teacher can try as hard as he or she wants, but if the parents don't care then nothing will help. It is a teacher's place to impart knowledge, and if we want to go to the whole "They didn't have it 200 years ago, so we shouldn't have it now" arguement so idiotically put forth earlier, then teachers really -don't- have a place teaching behavior. The kid either comes to school behaving, gets a beat down for not behaving or has to go home.

Caffeine is addictive.

Do a search on google if you like using the keywords, caffeinated soda addictive.

I know people that become aggressive and irritated if they don't get coffee or soda in the morning, just as with cigarettes. I'd say that is a sign of addiction, if a substance has an effect on your mood, even a minimal one.

Yeah, but a lot of things can be like that, Nolan. There are people who are addicted to work, believe it or not. Addictions aren't a good thing, maybe, but they aren't the end of the world - nor can you shield a person from all posible addictions.

You can call my point idiotic if it makes you feel better about your own take on things - it isn't going to change my opinion that advocating for the "right" to have soda in the classroom is counter-productive.

We did get through 200 years of educating kids without them having to have something to drink at their fingertips. I don't think it's a coincidence that when pop is allowed - which is just one of the unneccesary feeedoms being afforded kids these days - that our kid's scores have gone drastically down. Is that to say that soda is the one and only culprit or even a big one? No. But I do think it's indicative of a larger problem.

It's pretty apparent to me that the decline in American student's abilities has been accompanied by and indeed triggered by permissive and devil-may-care attitudes about soda and many other things, which didn't happen for decades, and yes, even centuries. If we don't take education seriously as adults, we sure as hell cannot expect the kids to. Part of taking it seriously is setting up guidelines and rules, and enforcing them.

And for the record, I went to college to be a science teacher, so I am not completely out of my field here with regard to the topic of education. No, I do not teach (though I am considering pursuing it again), as I found that the pay I could get at a job completely unrelated to my studies was much more lucrative (we're talking 20k+ more a year). Shame on me, I am part of the problem. I sold out.

I do not understand why I am getting this "it's not the school system's responsibilty to do anything but teach. Bull. To a degree it is. I don't see anyone here saying that its NOT MOSTLY the parent's job, of course it is - but when a kid sees more of his or her teachers than his parents for the better part of the year, I think it's important to go a little beyond the union mentality of, "thats not my job".

If you're talking adults, who are responsible for their own actions, I agree.

Kids are a different story altogether, we should not encourage them to develop habits, especially when they are in the stages of preparing for life.

Putting Coke machines in their face at school is encouragement.

Actually, brain-based research shows that giving students water and high energy snacks (sunflower seeds, raisins, nuts, fruits, etc.) every couple hours helps them learn better. It's also recommended having students stand, stretch, get a little exercise every 1-2 hours for the same reason. Hydration + energy + good blood flow/circulation helps the brain remain engaged with the content and activities in the classroom.

The schools my children attend give the kids water bottles at the beginning of the school year (school logo on them). Teachers ensure the kids remain hydrated, and parents take turns sending in healthy snacks throughout the week. This one change in the school has made a big difference to the eating habits of the kids too. For instance, when they get home from school they are not starving and running at the fridge for a total carbfest, which means at dinnertime they are actually able to eat a regular meal.

I do agree that teaching kids to self-regulate their soda/snack intake is the wiser choice because we can't just expect others to be parents for them, nor can they always feel they have someone around watching them and deciding what's best for them all the time. (though since the Patriot Act I think we all feel that constriction in some way).

That's interesting. Now, I would feel snacks might be disruptive... particularly if they are passed out in class or something, which would disrupt the education process. But I do agree that a small intake of such is helpful when trying to focus - it removes the distraction of hunger and thirst, if nothing else, which is why I always have both near my desk when I'm working on a paper or an article.

Anything that effects your mood is addictive? Oh really? Well shucks, we can't praise OR fail kids now, because that effects their mood and could become addictive. I love strawberries, but ops! I enjoy them, so they must be addictive... so we must remove them from school cafeterias immediately. I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of things in schools that fall into that category, none of which are banned.

Shouldn't they have just banned caffinated beverages if that was the concern though? (I actually forgot about caffeine in pop... there are tighter regulations on pops up in Canada, the Surge I drank from my trips cross-border shopping was NOT the same as the ones I got back home)

We got through several thousand years where it was right nifty to rape your wife/slaves and beat your children or kill them. Using something's existance over a period of time to prove a point IS idiotic, or, at least indicative of a serious lack of effort and thought. We didn't have morphine or tylenol for thousands of years... so maybe having that now is what's making our society into a bunch of cry babies.

I think there's a definite problem with our no discipline/no self-restraint society. I just have higher expectations when it comes to trying to prove a point. I can agree with your opinion while saying the logic by which you came to it is faulty. I just -hate- the whole "It used to be this way, and now our society is falling apart, so that MUST be the problem" arguements, they're not logical.

You know... Japan is known for their strict schooling, and they have pop in their schools. (oh... sweet Fanta... how I miss thee). So the existance of pop/juice/what have you, in a class isn't necessarily a distruptive element, though the way in which it's treated in north america might be.

Now, to the part where I actually disagree with your opinion, and not your method. I have taught in schools, it's part of my program and I've also done volunteer work in them... and if you really want teacher's to teach behavior to the kids who aren't getting it at home, then stop expecting them to bother with all those other things like math and reading, because there isn't enough time in the day. In an ideal system, where teacher's still retained the rights to discipline kids and had far less to cover in a day... yeah, they had some element of influence. They don't now, and expecting them to somehow parent kids without the authority required to do that isn't going to work. It's not their job.