Kendra, your opinions on this are all nullified by the fact that you are a socialist. Therefore, you're completely opposed to our entire system of government no matter which party is in power...unless it's The Party.
-Kiamat Dusk
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Kiamat Dusk
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05-17-2006 20:38
Kendra, your opinions on this are all nullified by the fact that you are a socialist. Therefore, you're completely opposed to our entire system of government no matter which party is in power...unless it's The Party.
-Kiamat Dusk _____________________
"My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape." -Bret Easton Ellis 'American Psycho'
"Anger is a gift." -RATM "Freedom" Eat me, you vile waste of food. http://writing.com/authors/suffer |
Champie Jack
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05-17-2006 20:39
johnkerry.com Do some fucking reading. The Democratic Party is filled with ideas. Let's hope they get a majority in both Houses come '06 so they can be implemented. johkerry.com is a member of the SL forums? I think the reason for the thread was to solicit ideas from the community. If you'd like to bring some of John Kerry's ideas into the thread then please do. |
Michael Seraph
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05-17-2006 20:43
I think the very point of the thread is so that you can offer your rational, reasonable approach to issues which you feel are handled irrationally and unreasonably by the current Administration. It's not a DIFFERENT standard, it's the same standard that you desire from any ADMINISTRATION, isn't it? I also thought the Constitution was a RULE of LAW & PROTECTION of RIGHTS document. I didn't realize that it was also a strategy guide (after all Kiamet has asked for your ideas, not the rules of the game). Kiamat holds the administration to a different standard than he holds those who would respond in this thread. It's isn't the standard I want from the administration that we're talking about here. The Constitution is supposed to limit the actions of the government. Those limits have evolved over 2 centuries, giving rise to many established courses of conduct that have been found to be both effective and protective of individual rights. The rules of the game give rise to the strategies used in the game. In this case, those rules have evolved over time and have given us many strategies for government action. Ignoring the time-tested methods and pretending the limits don't apply to the administration has proven to be an ineffective strategy. It has caused many Americans to question the aims of the administration, setting American against American in a time when unity is so very important. It has caused us to waste money and time in court battles and legislative action to counter the administration's unlawful behavior. We are even faced with another divisive, expensive, time-consuming impeachment process. So, yeah, send George and Dick a copy of the Constitution. If they don't know the rules they can't really be expected to play the game effectively, can they? |
Champie Jack
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05-17-2006 20:45
Kiamat holds the administration to a different standard than he holds those who would respond in this thread. It's isn't the standard I want from the administration that we're talking about here. The Constitution is supposed to limit the actions of the government. Those limits have evolved over 2 centuries, giving rise to many established courses of conduct that have been found to be both effective and protective of individual rights. The rules of the game give rise to the strategies used in the game. In this case, those rules have evolved over time and have given us many strategies for government action. Ignoring the time-tested methods and pretending the limits don't apply to the administration has proven to be an ineffective strategy. It has caused many Americans to question the aims of the administration, setting American against American in a time when unity is so very important. It has caused us to waste money and time in court battles and legislative action to counter the administration's unlawful behavior. We are even faced with another divisive, expensive, time-consuming impeachment process. So, yeah, send George and Dick a copy of the Constitution. If they don't know the rules they can't really be expected to play the game effectively, can they? So, what kind of ideas do you have about issues with which you disagree? Are you saying you would do everything the current administration is doing but you would do it in a manner that does not violate the constitution? |
Kiamat Dusk
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05-17-2006 20:47
Kiamat holds the administration to a different standard than he holds those who would respond in this thread. It's isn't the standard I want from the administration that we're talking about here. The Constitution is supposed to limit the actions of the government. Those limits have evolved over 2 centuries, giving rise to many established courses of conduct that have been found to be both effective and protective of individual rights. The rules of the game give rise to the strategies used in the game. In this case, those rules have evolved over time and have given us many strategies for government action. Ignoring the time-tested methods and pretending the limits don't apply to the administration has proven to be an ineffective strategy. It has caused many Americans to question the aims of the administration, setting American against American in a time when unity is so very important. It has caused us to waste money and time in court battles and legislative action to counter the administration's unlawful behavior. We are even faced with another divisive, expensive, time-consuming impeachment process. So, yeah, send George and Dick a copy of the Constitution. If they don't know the rules they can't really be expected to play the game effectively, can they? I don't hold the administration to a different standard-I just happen to agree with it in most cases when it comes to national security. There are those who have talked and talked about how they disagree, but have not offered a counter-solution thus I've started this thread to hear it because I'm not so egomaniacal to think that I have all the answers nor am I so in lock step with the Republican party to think they have all the answers. -Kiamat Dusk _____________________
"My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape." -Bret Easton Ellis 'American Psycho'
"Anger is a gift." -RATM "Freedom" Eat me, you vile waste of food. http://writing.com/authors/suffer |
Michael Seraph
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05-17-2006 20:51
Kendra, your opinions on this are all nullified by the fact that you are a socialist. Therefore, you're completely opposed to our entire system of government no matter which party is in power...unless it's The Party. -Kiamat Dusk LOL. What a crock of crap. Being a socialist doesn't make you opposed to democracy. There are democratic socialist parties all over the world. Putting your allegiance solely in a party is anti-democratic. Look what it's done to the Republicans. If George Bush were a Democrat, he'd have been impeached years ago. Republicans have given their loyalty to their party and betrayed their country. Oh yeah, before you make the mistake of assuming stupid things, I'm not a socialist. I'm a capitalist who believes in democracy. |
Champie Jack
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05-17-2006 20:55
LOL. What a crock of crap. Being a socialist doesn't make you opposed to democracy. There are democratic socialist parties all over the world. Putting your allegiance solely in a party is anti-democratic. Look what it's done to the Republicans. If George Bush were a Democrat, he'd have been impeached years ago. Republicans have given their loyalty to their party and betrayed their country. Oh yeah, before you make the mistake of assuming stupid things, I'm not a socialist. I'm a capitalist who believes in democracy. I think everyone is still waiting to hear ideas about how you would approach National Security issues. Any thoughts? |
Michael Seraph
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05-17-2006 21:27
So, what kind of ideas do you have about issues with which you disagree? Are you saying you would do everything the current administration is doing but you would do it in a manner that does not violate the constitution? 1) I wouldn't have invaded Iraq. Thereby saving billions which would have been spent on upgrading security in the US and providing first responders with the money they badly need. Hussein was contained. Afghanistan needed to be rid of the Taleban before we shifted focus. 2) My major foreign policy thrust would have been to accomplish a peace settlement in Israel/Palestine. I'm not saying I could have done it, but the Israel/Palestine problem is the major cause of Muslim anger at the US. Fixing that problem, or at least showing the world that the US and Europe were seriously trying to fix it would have done much to shrink the pool of jihadist recruits. 3) A secondary policy initiative would be the promotion of economic development and trade liberalization in the Middle East accompanied by development aid tied to human rights improvements and democratic liberalization. Again the goal would be to reduce anti-Americanism and the pool of available jihadis. Supporting repressive autocracies with closed economies makes no sense. Democratization and economic development in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Iran would do more for stability in the middle east than anything we have accomplished in Iraq. Pro-democracy, pro-free trade and economic liberalization policies applied to our allies as well as our adversaries in the Middle East would have done much for stability in the region. So a free trade, pro-democracy foreign policy (applied to allies as well as adversaries) accompanied by a huge push for a peaceful resolution to the Israel/Palestine problem would have been my foreign policy goals. Our military presence in Afghanistan would have been turned over to NATO. A comprehensive plan to democratize the country along with an international "Marshal Plan" to develop its economy would have helped to eliminate the Taleban threat. In the US I would have tightened industrial and transportation security, including chemical plants, airports/airlines, train and roads/bridges. I would have introduced a gradual plan to regularize identification documents used by the states with the goal of a defacto national ID card, which would still be technically under state control, but with the information regularized and easily shared by all levels of government. Those are a few ideas. The goal would be to reduce the appeal of violent radical Islam while improving domestic security. |
Champie Jack
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05-17-2006 21:44
1) I wouldn't have invaded Iraq. Thereby saving billions which would have been spent on upgrading security in the US and providing first responders with the money they badly need. Hussein was contained. Afghanistan needed to be rid of the Taleban before we shifted focus. 2) My major foreign policy thrust would have been to accomplish a peace settlement in Israel/Palestine. I'm not saying I could have done it, but the Israel/Palestine problem is the major cause of Muslim anger at the US. Fixing that problem, or at least showing the world that the US and Europe were seriously trying to fix it would have done much to shrink the pool of jihadist recruits. 3) A secondary policy initiative would be the promotion of economic development and trade liberalization in the Middle East accompanied by development aid tied to human rights improvements and democratic liberalization. Again the goal would be to reduce anti-Americanism and the pool of available jihadis. Supporting repressive autocracies with closed economies makes no sense. Democratization and economic development in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Iran would do more for stability in the middle east than anything we have accomplished in Iraq. Pro-democracy, pro-free trade and economic liberalization policies applied to our allies as well as our adversaries in the Middle East would have done much for stability in the region. So a free trade, pro-democracy foreign policy (applied to allies as well as adversaries) accompanied by a huge push for a peaceful resolution to the Israel/Palestine problem would have been my foreign policy goals. Our military presence in Afghanistan would have been turned over to NATO. A comprehensive plan to democratize the country along with an international "Marshal Plan" to develop its economy would have helped to eliminate the Taleban threat. In the US I would have tightened industrial and transportation security, including chemical plants, airports/airlines, train and roads/bridges. I would have introduced a gradual plan to regularize identification documents used by the states with the goal of a defacto national ID card, which would still be technically under state control, but with the information regularized and easily shared by all levels of government. Those are a few ideas. The goal would be to reduce the appeal of violent radical Islam while improving domestic security. I think that everything you said is excelent. 1. I agree that we could have avoided going into Iraq. I remember thinking that Iraq would be just a media diversion from the "long and arduous fight" (I think it was described as a long fight that required patience) in Afghanistan. We probably differ on the motivations we ascribe to the administration, but I AGREE that Iraq was a voluntary war we could have avoided (at least for the near future). 2. What an accomplishment such a peace deal would have been! I agree that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict should have and could have been an important and successful effort. Well, actually, maybe not successful (we can't really WILL success there). I'm not sure if it would have shrunk jihadist pool, but I don't think that it is an important point for us to argue about. I'll accept that it may have accomplished that as well. 3. There is an interesting argument here. I have read that in the past our allies were those who looked most like us politically (democracies allied with democracies, etc), but today allies are made between nations with similar economic interests (ie China and US can be considered strong allies for the future). Also, economics leads and political views follow...so the idea is that if we Ally with China because of economic interests, then they are more likely to follow along onto a path toward more individual freedoms and transparent government - Economics leads. Great post, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts! I hope others respond with respectful comments of their own. Your post is an excellent template for further constructive discussion. |
Michael Seraph
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05-17-2006 22:13
3. There is an interesting argument here. I have read that in the past our allies were those who looked most like us politically (democracies allied with democracies, etc), but today allies are made between nations with similar economic interests (ie China and US can be considered strong allies for the future). Also, economics leads and political views follow...so the idea is that if we Ally with China because of economic interests, then they are more likely to follow along onto a path toward more individual freedoms and transparent government - Economics leads. Trade and other economic agreements are often more effective at reducing a country's negative behavior than other types of treaties. It's not an aberration that the European Union started out as an economic common market. Today we take for granted the Franco-German alliance at the heart of the European Union, but we need to remember the 4 major wars fought between the two in the century and a half before the Treaty of Rome. Economic agreements are a great way to draw rogue nations into the world community. It legitimizes international standards and, despite all attempts to prevent it, allows the spread of ideas, especially those tied to higher standards of living, into closed societies. |
Champie Jack
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05-17-2006 23:16
Trade and other economic agreements are often more effective at reducing a country's negative behavior than other types of treaties. It's not an aberration that the European Union started out as an economic common market. Today we take for granted the Franco-German alliance at the heart of the European Union, but we need to remember the 4 major wars fought between the two in the century and a half before the Treaty of Rome. Economic agreements are a great way to draw rogue nations into the world community. It legitimizes international standards and, despite all attempts to prevent it, allows the spread of ideas, especially those tied to higher standards of living, into closed societies. I can't say that I have any real knowledge to share, so I have to ask questions... How would you compare the Franco-German Alliance and some new potential alliances in the Middle East. I guess I believe that there must be a difference between the European example and a Middle East example that has to account for Theocracies, Dictatorships, and Tyrannies. Isn't it risky business to engage economically (which requires some level of political alliance) with such nations? If you'd prefer to not have to educate me on these issues, I would appreciate any links to relevent or useful ideas, history or facts. Thanks, Champie edit: please don't feel obliged to answer, I'll probably be doing some of my own investigation/learning. I do appreciate the effort you have put into responding, so I don't want to abuse your good will. |
Kiamat Dusk
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05-18-2006 04:32
LOL. What a crock of crap. Being a socialist doesn't make you opposed to democracy. There are democratic socialist parties all over the world. Putting your allegiance solely in a party is anti-democratic. Look what it's done to the Republicans. If George Bush were a Democrat, he'd have been impeached years ago. Republicans have given their loyalty to their party and betrayed their country. Oh yeah, before you make the mistake of assuming stupid things, I'm not a socialist. I'm a capitalist who believes in democracy. The only one here making assumptions is you. You've assumed that I meant that post to be taken seriously. Furthermore you've assumed that Kendra isn't capable of making her own responses. -Kiamat Dusk _____________________
"My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape." -Bret Easton Ellis 'American Psycho'
"Anger is a gift." -RATM "Freedom" Eat me, you vile waste of food. http://writing.com/authors/suffer |
Introvert Petunia
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05-18-2006 05:20
Since 9/11 I have been snapping my fingers vigerously and hooting like an owl to avoid elephants trampling my family. Since 9/11, I am happy to hoot that no elephants have trampled my family. Hoot hoot. *snap snap* Although the actions of a couple dozen yutzes 5 years ago was pretty dramatic, I've read of absolutely no instances where our national hand-wringing and the DHS of Great Competence has prevented, abated, or even thought they averted any domestic threats. This could be because a) there haven't been any successes b) the successes are secret; given the propensity for governmental organizations to trumpet their successes I lean to (a) but obviously I wouldn't know or couldn't tell you if it was (b). On the other hand, alcohol related driving fatalities last year in the US were thrice that of the 9/11 act and who knows how many related shootings, assaults, and other Bad Things were related to EtOH. Does that make Anheiser-Busch and friends a state subsidized manufacturer of chemical weapons of mass destruction? Not to diminish the impact of the 9/11 attacks, but one day really gives you no idea what sustained, prolonged, "real" terrorism is like. Ask a Brit or Isreali if you want to get some idea about that. This is of course ignoring that in the US "eye-for-an-eye" campaign half as many US citizens as were killed on 9/11 have died in the war and some 100 thousand Iraqis have as well. From what I hear, they love their children too. |
Kendra Bancroft
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05-18-2006 05:48
Kendra, your opinions on this are all nullified by the fact that you are a socialist. Therefore, you're completely opposed to our entire system of government no matter which party is in power...unless it's The Party. -Kiamat Dusk Not at all. I support the Democratic Party's platform for this country for the most part. Unlike locksteps Republicans such as yourself , I tend to vote the candidate and issues which I feel support my outlook. I also recognize that the USA will never be socialist, but in addition I recognize that the ideal USA has room for people of all political stripes. The Democratic Party has a huge tent. The Republican Party does not. Given a choice between a Party that embraces diversity and one that worships homogenization I'll choose the former every time. _____________________
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Kendra Bancroft
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05-18-2006 05:51
johkerry.com is a member of the SL forums? I think the reason for the thread was to solicit ideas from the community. If you'd like to bring some of John Kerry's ideas into the thread then please do. This thread is a joke at best. I'm not going to engage in cutting and pasting articles from people who write better than I do, just to have you engage me in busy work. Read for yourself. I'm not your babysitter, and frankly my time is more valuable out there on the streets protesting this insane administration. Or is that you're simply afraid to read solid ideas on how to fix the mess this country has become under your lunatic President. _____________________
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Rose Karuna
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05-18-2006 06:25
Trade and other economic agreements are often more effective at reducing a country's negative behavior than other types of treaties. It's not an aberration that the European Union started out as an economic common market. Today we take for granted the Franco-German alliance at the heart of the European Union, but we need to remember the 4 major wars fought between the two in the century and a half before the Treaty of Rome. Economic agreements are a great way to draw rogue nations into the world community. It legitimizes international standards and, despite all attempts to prevent it, allows the spread of ideas, especially those tied to higher standards of living, into closed societies. Very true - from a security perspective there are a lot of papers that have been published on this. Enhancing US Security Through Foreign Aid - It's from 1994 but it's very interesting reading - particularly now in retrospect. http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/48xx%5Cdoc4894/doc21-Part2.pdf . _____________________
I Do Whatever My Rice Krispies Tell Me To
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Cindy Claveau
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05-18-2006 07:42
2) My major foreign policy thrust would have been to accomplish a peace settlement in Israel/Palestine. I'm not saying I could have done it, but the Israel/Palestine problem is the major cause of Muslim anger at the US. Fixing that problem, or at least showing the world that the US and Europe were seriously trying to fix it would have done much to shrink the pool of jihadist recruits. 3) A secondary policy initiative would be the promotion of economic development and trade liberalization in the Middle East accompanied by development aid tied to human rights improvements and democratic liberalization. Again the goal would be to reduce anti-Americanism and the pool of available jihadis. Supporting repressive autocracies with closed economies makes no sense. Democratization and economic development in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Iran would do more for stability in the middle east than anything we have accomplished in Iraq. I'd like to go back to Michael's point for a moment. I don't think anyone denies that an Israeli-Palestinian peace is a central lynchpin for Middle Eastern peace, but right now I'm anything but optimistic. One, every effort to book a peace has been met by violent, bullying intimidation by radical elements within the Palestinian community itself. The first and most noticeable was the assassination of Egypt's Sadat by Al Jihad members (later connected with al Qaeda). Since that time, assassination and intimidation have restrained the Palestinian leadership from doing anything overtly peaceful toward Israel -- in fact, the Arab world's mindset has restrained leaders of Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, and Pakistan from either publicly making overtures or even of appearing to be pro-US. It's fear more than anything that holds back the process. How do you fight that fear? I said in another thread that education and enlightenment are the keys to reversing the prevalence of superstition and hatred among Arabs -- the mullahs have understood this for decades, and their madrassahs have a huge head start in inculcating an unreasonable hatred for Israel and Jews into the minds of their youth. How do you fight that bigotry? How do you propose to replace the totalitarian, repressive regimes in Egypt, Syria, Pakistan and Iran without also risking even more radicalization -- perhaps even a radical Jihadist government in Pakistan with operational nukes? I don't think it's something that can be done within the 4-year term of one President - or even 8 if he's re-elected. This is a task for a generation but it's going to take clearly stated goals, international underwriting (not easy when other nations are as self-serving as the Arab leaders) and extreme patience. And even when it's all said and done, you have no guarantees that the extremists will cease their murder and extortion. They're too firmly entrenched. There's another option, of course. But Americans don't have the stomach for killing. So we're back to asking the initial question: "How?" _____________________
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Champie Jack
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05-18-2006 08:11
Or is that you're simply afraid to read solid ideas on how to fix the mess this country has become under your lunatic President. Your opinion is being marginalized by those who are intelligent and capable of sharing their point of view in a cooperative manner. Best of luck to you in your efforts on the street. |
Briana Dawson
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05-18-2006 08:29
Not at all. I support the Democratic Party's platform for this country for the most part. LOL What platform? The democrats haven't been able to successfully put forward a platform that the American public can grasp since 2000. Briana Dawson |
Champie Jack
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05-18-2006 08:32
LOL What platform? The democrats haven't been able to successfully put forward a platform that the American public can grasp since 2000. Briana Dawson please refer to johnkerry.com for all of Kendra's views |
Briana Dawson
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05-18-2006 08:38
please refer to johnkerry.com for all of Kendra's views Oh ya, he had a real obvious platform when he ran, didn't he? If I recall it was "Do you want more of the same, or something better?" I think one of the best parts of John Kerry's campaign was when John Edwards said during the debate with Cheney that the Kerry/Edwards administration would never tell a lie to the public and would have a policy of honesty. Thats laughable. Briana Dawson |
Champie Jack
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05-18-2006 08:41
Oh ya, he had a real obvious platform when he ran, didn't he? If I recall it was "Do you want more of the same, or something better?" I think one of the best parts of John Kerry's campaign was when John Edwards said during the debate with Cheney that the Kerry/Edwards administration would never tell a lie to the public and would have a policy of honesty. Thats laughable. Briana Dawson They also let us know that Dick Cheney's daughter, Lynn, is gay. I was very impressed. edit: Opps, Dick Cheney's daughter's name is MARY, not Lynn (that's his wife) Also, did you know John Kerry was in Vietnam? |
Briana Dawson
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05-18-2006 08:51
They also let us know that Dick Cheney's daughter, Lynn, is gay. I was very impressed. Also, did you know John Kerry was in Vietnam? http://www.swiftvets.com/swiftvetsandpows/ Yea, the Lynn bashing was absolutely tasteless. Especially coming from a party that claims to care so much about diversity. Briana Dawson |
Michael Seraph
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05-18-2006 09:04
The only one here making assumptions is you. You've assumed that I meant that post to be taken seriously. Furthermore you've assumed that Kendra isn't capable of making her own responses. -Kiamat Dusk You are right. I assumed that you meant what you wrote. Sorry, won't do that again. You are wrong. I didn't assume that Kendra wasn't capable of making her own responses. Having argued with Kendra in the past, I know very well that she is more than capable of responding. So, did you mean that post to be taken seriously? If you did, it's still a load of crap. If you didn't, maybe you should somehow indicate such things. It's hard to tell when you mean crap and when you don't. |
Michael Seraph
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05-18-2006 09:18
http://www.swiftvets.com/swiftvetsandpows/ Yea, the Lynn bashing was absolutely tasteless. Especially coming from a party that claims to care so much about diversity. Briana Dawson What bashing? Lynn is Dick Cheney's wife. Mary is the gay daughter. How is it bashing to mention that somebody who is already out of the closet is gay? And while we're on the subject, I know that what's important for you is whether something is "tasteless" or not, but what is truly important is what the right wing wackos are really doing. And what are these fascists doing? They are campaigning to amend the US Constitution to make me a second class citizen. I know that's not nearly as "tasteless" for you as saying that Mary Cheney, the former liason to the Gay Community for Coors Brewing, is gay. But it's real. It's what gay Americans get to wake up to every day. So whether or not you find it "tasteless" we're not going back in the closet. People are going to say the word "gay" on tv. And one day, hopefully soon, we will be standing up and marrying our partners like any other Americans. So you can go support the fascists and campaign this fall to ban gay adoption like you supported them when they voted to ban gay marriage. And you can tell us how tasteless it is when we point out the hypocrisy. But America is slowly waking up to the fact that gay people don't pose any threat to society or marriage and despite the Republican Party's best efforts to make us the scapegoats of all that is wrong, it's just more Republican bull shit. |