Supreme Court Rules Against Abortion Clinics

Has anyone read this yet?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11604762/

It's interesting to say the least.

Yeah but you make it sound like the supremem court said abortion clinics were illegal. this simply says the supreme court has ruled that Anti-Abortion groups are not subject to RICO. Abortion clinics had previously tried to use RICO to stop protests by pro life organizations. Now that cannot base an injucntion on the pro-life grouops as been racketeer influenced corrupt organizations.

So pro-lifers are not the mob. They can go back to being simple terrorists now.

I used the same headline that MSN used. I don't personally care either way about this, just posted it due to the large amounts of abortion threads at the moment.

I didn't know if anyone had seen it yet since it was not posted.

Yeah, somebody posted it in that "other" thread to show that abortions are about to become illegal. Genius, huh?

Did they? I have kind of been skimming it, but not really paying attention.

I don't think it will be outlawed anytime soon. I just thought it was interesting that abortion clinics used RICO against protestors. That law was developed/passed to bring down the mafia in the 80's. I find it strange what people try to use it for. It's a pretty specific law, yet people try to interpert it to fit what they want. Which happens with anything nowadays.


People used to demonstrate a lot at the Planned Parenthood in my hometown and a few times they got physical with the people trying to go to the clinic, and were arrested. I don't agree with that at all. (The getting physical part) You can demonstrate quietly and not traumatize a woman worse by being an ass.

There is a group where I am that protest the war, The Women in Black. They will just stand quietly, dressed all in black and hold signs. People will walk up to them to ask what they are about and they do not respond to the assholes that will try to start crap. I wish that was how every group could protest. It's very respectful and gets the point across.

About 4 months ago I went to buy a pizza in my town at a take-and-bake place and there were people picketing against abortion. I do not know why they were outside this building in the first place, other than it doubled as the chamber of commerce. (There were 5 stores in one building including the chamber of commerce) The people were rude to ME for trying to walk past them. They were not going to let me through and were saying if I crossed their picket line I supported abortion. I was like WTF? It really made no sense.

I told them, "I am here for my dinner, which is a pizza. NOT FETUS." and they moved. I guess my crude and obnoxious comments can come in handy. I was hungry dammit!!

I agree with the right to protest. I don't agree with the right to physically harm someone that doesn't agree with you during that protest. I REALLY don't agree with the people that have done it to the women trying to get an abortion. They are already having a pretty shitty day, so why make it worse?

Oh yeah, I know, wtf is with some of these protesters? Some of those clinics do other types of women's health care too. Do I HAVE to tell these people I'm not here for an abortion, I'm here for a PAP smear??? None of their business...

My guess is the protester is hoping the woman changes her mind. She (the protester) hopes the woman has the child, and years later, while gazing into her daughter's eyes on her wedding day, she remembers the protester who saved her daughter's life.

So to accomplish that, it justifies the woman grabbing the girl's arm, shoving her around, and screaming in her face that she is a murderer?

Nothing excuses a protestor physically harming/threatening/ or intimidating another person PERIOD. I don't care what the cause is, you have no right to lay your hands on another person if they do not see eye to eye with you on the issue. It's a sad fact that people on both sides of this issue seem to forget that.

By doing this to a woman trying to get an abortion, you are making a crappy situation almost unbearable. What gives someone protesting the right to physically try to stop her from going in? If someone had tried that crap on me when I had my abortion, they would be sporting a black eye and bloody nose. I would hope that I had at least broke the nose of the asshole stupid enough to touch me.

I am Pro-Life, but I am also not going to be shocked or saddened when I hear of a news story about a woman that was harrassed and accosted by a protestor outside of a clinic, snapping and shooting them. You can make a difference and help people without being an asshole. A friend of mine asked me what it was like to have an abortion and I told her. She was pregnant at that time and didn't know what to do. I told her to talk to her mom, that the mom would be mad at first but would eventually calm down and help her figure out the best course of action for everyone. And that is what happened. She became a young mother, but she also had the complete backing and support from her family. Now tell me how you yelling at a woman going to the clinic is going to change her mind?

"MURDER!!!" (Poor girl thinking...OMG, like they are soooo totally right. THANK GOD FOR THE PROTESTORS!! THEY HAVE SAVED MY SOUL!)

Yeah....THAT happens all the time. But hey, you can do what you want I guess.



And I will not be responding to you after this post Kevn, since I know that you will miss the obvious points and start talking out of your ass as usual. There is no real discussion with you, you refuse to admit any valid points against your stance, so there really is no point. If you think that woman will look back fondly on a protestor that kept her from having that abortion....think again.

And if the daughter is born into a life of poverty, depravity, and ineptitude like so many abortion patients wish to avoid for themselves and the next generation?

Really, I hate the picture this is painted as, for and against. Let someone choose already and bear their own moral dilemma. This whole using the law of the land to adjudicate faith is a piss-off at best.

Carry on.

I'm going to try to present this more rationally than I think Kevn does (no offense, Kevn, but you do go off on some weird tangents). While I personally do not agree with anything other than peaceful protest, you have to look a bit into the mindset of those protesting aggressively to understand the motivation behind what they are doing.

There are many people, myself included, who genuinely believe that abortion is murder. It is the killing of a human life - no different than taking the life of any other human. (There are all kinds of arguments about this, and I am not here to prolong that because again, no one will really convince anyone). With that in mind, the protesters that are there are not just trying to change someone's mind, they are trying to save the life of a child in their mind - to prevent a murder. The question is how far is going too far in trying to stop the death of a child? That is the mindset many of them are coming from.

Abortion is probably the single most divisive issue of modern society. It won't be solved in these forums or any others. I hope that ultimately medical science finds an alternative to abortion that allows for the choice of a woman not to want to go through with a pregnancy in her body and still allows that life to carry on without her instead of being terminated. Until that point, this will be an endless, painful tug of war for both sides of this issue.

Cris,
I completely understand where they are coming from when they do it. But it seems as if they don't understand the frame of mind the person about to have the abortion is in.

If they haven't walked in those shoes, it's easy to be very judgemental and goo too far in what they believe is right.

I have been in those shoes. I know what it is like walking up to the abortion clinic, being stopped by the security guard and ID'd to make sure you are on the abortion list and not a protestor trying to sneak in to raise hell. It SUCKS. I would have rather been anywhere but that place on that day, but I was there because I felt I had no other option. It's shitty that the protestors think that by verbally abusing the women it will help or make them change their mind. It doesn't help.

I helped a friend just by talking to her and listening, and then offering advice only when she asked. That is probably the best thing that anyone can do for a woman that doesn't know what she wants to do. Having an abortion is probably one of the lowest and hardest days in a woman's life. Having people screaming at you, shoving you, and basically HATING you makes it that much worse.

But if it's to save a baby, then it must be ok? No. For the Christian protestors...it should be about loving and helping the women. Not telling them that they will burn in hell for murder.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Creami,

I think honestly to those trying to stop what they believe to be a murder about to occur, the frame of mind of the woman is completely irrelevant. They are trying everything they can to avert the death of a child. They are definitely going about it the wrong way though, I do agree.

I will admit my own biases, and where I stand on things so you understand where I am coming from in my responses. I freely admit I do believe that abortion is murder. What occurs during an abortion horrifies me. It doesn't come from being religious - although raised Catholic, I am not practicing and don't believe in organized religion anyway.

Several years ago, my girlfriend became pregnant. It wasn't planned - she was on birth control and we used condoms, but it still happened. It occured at a time in our relationship when I wasn't even sure I still wanted to be in the relationship, and all the sudden I was faced with having a child. I didn't even have to carry it and I was scared and wanted the whole thing to just go away at first. Would I have wanted her to have an abortion under any circumstances though? No, I would have been haunted by it if she had. Sadly, I would not have had any say in it if she wanted to though.

I got my mind wrapped around it all, and allowed myself to fall in love with the idea of being a father. I went to the doctor with her and saw the images of the baby - and that is what it was - not some lump of meaningless tissue, even early on. Unfortunately, my girlfriend ultimately miscarried, which was devastating for both of us - in fact our relationship did not survive it.

I do know that as a male, it is impossible for me to understand completely the sense of helplessness a woman feels when you are pregnant and do not want to go through with the pregnancy. I don't want to see abortion taken away altogether - I am realistic, and I know that women will always seek out to end pregnancies in certain cases. I do however believe that things like partial birth abortions are particularly criminal, and would like to see them outlawed. I would like abortion to become much rarer than it is now. Safe and rare - not used as a form of convenient birth control.

Her frame of mind is relevant though. Theey want to change her mind and save a life, so they really do need to consider that. Alienation is not the way to persude someone to see things your way.

And I come from the same view point as you do. As much as I may crudely joke and attempt to derail the threads due to the same stuff being beat into the ground. I think in certain cases it should be allowed, but never a partial birth. I am well aware of what happens during an abortion.

In a nutshell, you and I agree on this. So I won't argue with you.

I thought so!

It is not often that humor can be found in an abortion thread, but that my friend was priceless

Thank fuck I live in a civilised country, where women going for an abortion dont have to run a gauntlet of sanctimonious fucktards telling them how evil they are.

Look, it's very easy for you high and mighty pro-choice people to come down on the "sanctimonious fucktards", because you honestly aren't looking at it from their perspective. I don't agree with them, I'm very firmly in the middle on this issue, but understand that they think they are trying to prevent murder. If I see you drawing a gun to shoot someone and I tackle you to the ground and knock you out, I'm not being a "sanctimonious fucktard" to stop you, am I? To them, it is the same thing.

I can see that reitsuki, and i know where you stand on the issue, you straddle an uneasy position, and do endeavour to be a voice of reason on this subject..... see in the uk, abortions are carried out within hospitals, and behaviour such as is seen in the states by pro life demonstrators would not be tolertated in a clinical area.
Women going for an abortion have in general, had to make a tough decision theyd rather not make, the last thing they need is to run a gauntlet.
Arent these women facing enough psychological trauma without having to face what they inevitably do in the states?

no argument here.

Can I come live with you?

Kiamet, letting pro-lifers protest in front of an abortion clinic will not make abortion illegal.



I know we all have our own opinions on this subject. You might think that me being pro-choice makes me a murderer, but that is your opinion. I would likely never get an abortion. I don't really want it to happen. I see all the arguments for and against. I see, and take in consideration what everybody is saying. In my opinion, pro-choice people are not failing to see what the pro-lifers are saying, in fact we agree with many points (unbelievable, hmm?). Pro-choice just means (this is my opinion again) that we believe that no laws should be made to govern a woman's body. I know I will hear that a fetus is not a woman's body. In my opinion, it is, and it's ok if in your opinion it's not. We ALL want abortions to not happen, but we should all work towards preventing them, not making them illegal. I think this is the point that many of the more religious pro-lifers fail to see. But again, my opinion.

I think that's a well-stated stance, Sally, and I appreciate the intent.

I'm on the anti-abortion side, and offer a couple things:

First, I'm going to except rape, incest and the like here, because I have mixed feelings on them, and think they're much more debatable. So I'm focusing here on optional abortions where noone's life is a stake except the fetus/baby.

With regard to the fetus being or not being a part of a woman's body: I'm in my mid 40's and have never heard a woman who had a miscarriage and knew it, utter the words "I lost the fetus". It's always stated as "lost the baby". A very different message and implies an independence one generally wouldn't accord a "fetus". The widespread prevalence of that implication I think weakens the argument that the fetus is a part of the woman's body.

Now, I also have three children of my own, and am very aware of the radical change in lifestyle, cost in terms of money and time, and so on that children imply. I think it's unwise to underestimate how far greed, and by that I mean greed to keeps one's life simple, will drive a person. History shows that greed is an extremely powerful thing. Things worse than abortion have been rationalized and justified over greed. I think this is case in most abortions.

Now...I think we can agree that it is, in fact, debatable whether the fetus is part of the woman or not. This is essentially the same as debating the point at which life begins, a debate what will go on for sometime with neither side conclusively beinag able to prove their point.

Here's the thing that makes the difference for me:

If the pro-choice person is wrong, murder has been committed.
If the pro-life person is wrong, inconvenience has been committed.

Given a point that can't be proven conclusively, which mistake would you rather make?

That's a *very* slippery slope there... I wouldn't want to start going down it, myself. There are a lot of things that can be justified in the name of "Just to be on the safe side", not all of them good.

Point taken. But most people would agree that "Just to be on the safe side" is the appropriate response to arguably commiting murder. And except in the cases I excluded, I've never seen abortion justified by anything that can't be boiled down to convenience.

So, we're not talking about "a lot of things". We're talking about the comparison between what can arguably be defined as murder and what is most certainly definable as convenience.

In fact, that slope is not nearly as slippery as you think.