Later "Tookie"

Tookie changed his life and apologised for creating the Crips. I admire this man for his dignity and proclaiming his innocence up til the very end. He saved alot of impressional young peoples lives with his messages of anti-gang participation. The Gov Arnold needs to go back to movies and stay out of politics. This decision was wrong

Death makes us all irrational.

Killing someone isn't punishment. It's putting them beyond punishment once and for all.

Holy crap I agree with something the governator did, that's a first!

So you think it's not okay for him to kill people, but okay for US to kill people?

Mind you, it would have been cheaper for everyone had he been given a life without parole sentence in the first place. The reason people sit on death row so long is because you must be absolutely sure they are guilty and they get many, many appeals which cost a lot of money. Further, some people have been found innocent (not a mistrial or some technicality, but completely innocent) while on death row due to advances in evidence technology. Throwing the lot of these people on death row into life without parole would just flat out save the taxpayer money.



Explain how killing him in return for killing others is not revenge? Sounds like an eye for an eye to me. Except that here I doubt you are in any way close to the people in question who could seek revenge.


So I guess it's just some kind of sick "I'm happy someone died" thing... Do you people that are happy he's dead, giggle at war and natural disasters too?

Yeah I sure did, laughed all the way to Baghdad.

Alright, as long as we've established that you are indeed a monster.

Yes quite frankly. Those were the consequences for his actions. His murderous actions held drastic, fatal consequences.

As far as my personal view on the death penalty, I'm perfectly ok with it. When a dog goes mad, you put it down. Why? For the protection of all. I believe it's the same with people. When a person goes bad, commits multiple murders, violent crimes, leaves pain and death behind them like cast off garbage and shows no remorse or guilt, then for the greater good, they should be put down.

If anything, I'd extend the death penalty to serial rapists, serial child molesters (have to put a few priests down) and any others whose lives causes a series of continual violent abuse against society. Violent abuse, so don't twist my words to include nonsense like jaywalking or other nonviolent crimes.

If you honestly believe my obvious sarcasm, then so be it.

Edit to add: Also, if you have such a problem with the death penalty then approach legislature to get it changed.

Reportedly, Schwarzenegger asked whether there was "any good reason to overrule the appelate courts and keep the guy alive."

IMO, wrong question in these cases, where a government can exercise the right to put a citizen to death. The question is, "is there any good reason to kill the guy," or, locked up in prison for the rest of his life, is he a threat or can he be a help to society?

If he's a threat, he dies. If he's not, be very, very careful about exercising the kind of power that governments have been abusing forever in cases where judicial systems make serious mistakes in about 30% of all cases tried.

Look, if you don't like the death penalty, fight to change the law. Ther eare plenty of reasons why a state should not excercise power of life and death over its citizens. But please don't insult my intelligence or the memory of the victims by advocating that Tookie Williams was really a nice guy and a credit to humanity.

I don't give a flying fuck whether Tookie Williams was nice or not. My point is really simple: have a care about the implications of giving any human-run institution the power of death over life, for whatever reason. If people like Tookie Williams are no longer a threat to society or individuals, err on the side of caution and judgement. If they are, eliminate them. As I said, Schwarzenegger asked the wrong question.

So you're content to treat people like dogs rather than find out what social, chemical reason or other malignant reason led them to commit whatever crimes they committed. There are also reasons dogs go mad (one of which is rabies and we have vaccines for that). Apparently you think we shouldn't be investigating and working to prevent this kind of behavior before it happens? Or maybe your approach is to just kill anyone that exhibits bad behavior and let the gene pool sort that out.

My, my, my! A "I'm happy someone died" thing! What an interesting thing THAT is to say!

Heh.

Siro, If their is one thing I have learned in my years, it's this:

There is such a thing as monsters. They look just like us. They're as smart as us. They are capable of killing and sitting down to a conversational meal within minutes of the deed. They will tell you anything that you want to hear to be freed and DO IT AGAIN. They will sometimes even be cunning enough to escape without being set free.

So yes. A part of me IS glad he's dead. Not from any misguided sense of bloodlust, but from good old-fashioned sense of self preservation.

You SLAY dragons. You don't reform them.

Carry on.

First off....the real issue here.

Who the fuck calls himself Tookie?!?

Now, lets see. I think it's fun to kill people! I think Ill go out today. La la la, stab an old woman with her cane and spit in her face, la la la, through a knife at a mother at throw hot coffee on her, doo dee doo doo, choke a biker with a wire, boop a doop doo, drop kick a disabled man and strip him.

Oh noooo! Im sorry! I didn't mean to ferociously kill four innocents. Oh what? You found out about my gang that is terrorizing the country? I'm sorry. Gangs ain't da shizzle. Look! I made a cute story why you shouldn't murder people! See the pretty pictures of the people not being slaughtered? I am a good person now you see! I make little kids laugh so who cares about the gang I made which Im not helping to stop or the people I killed. I made a book!

What? Im guilty? You are going to kill me? ... But I made a book! You don't understand! I am above death! I can only dish it, I can't take it! ....This is racism! No, I dont care if its cause of all the people I killed and the gang I made! Its cause IM BLACK! RACIST PIG. I dont care if I killed four people, you are racist! Why are you racist? ...... Um.... Good question.

Anyone who actually thinks this man deserved to walk this earth another second if DEFINATELY screwed.

Listen, we know he killed four people. Also, he helped make the worst gang in the United States history, or at the least its high up there. So we know hes not innocent.

I am sorry for the people who think that man doesn't have the right to take lives. Well, we kind of have been doing so since time has began. God even instructed a man to kill his son. To Buddhists....well....sorry.....but on the bright side you can just get Nirvana and fuse with Brahman while we kill each other on Earth. Im not saying that murder is right. Hell no. I am saying, though, in some circumstances we have to for the greater good.

I am actually quite liberal, but this is one issue where I definately agree. And these sick freaks dont change their ways....maybe 5%. But thats oh so rare. In any case, even though he did reform, his crime was too large for repent. Cya in hell you sick disgusting Tookie Williams =)

-Ayame Sapeur

BTW Call me sick, Im happy he's dead!

I forgot the one who thinks England is the shit. No, I dont like death. I only like it to people who deserve it. What a stupid thing to ask.

<claps> Very GOOD!

Ok, everyone. What we have here is a person who believes that every criminal and anti-social attitude is based in some form of mental illness. That you should CURE criminals instead of punish them.

Siro, it's not possible yet. We don't understand how the brain works. We are not allowed to experiment (rightfully so) on humans to find out exactly how the mechanics work. And even those who have tried illegally admitted to not really finding anything that defined the parameters we need yet.

In other words, we don't know how to fix people's heads yet.

Then we can get into the paradox of fixing monsters: If you make a monster sane, won't it destroy him to know what he did while a monster? And if you erase his memory of his crimes, won't he still know what he did thrid party? Either way, down that road leads madness again.

Ohhh How about rebuilding the person's personality? We don't HAVE to kill him! But, is not having your mind rebuilt into something else a form of dying? Does that not mean we just 'killed' him anyway? But I guess you're just worried about the physical 'death'?


I could go on about how most religions believe the soul is immortal, but that's just being picky...

Later.

Hey, cool way to put words in my mouth.

Certainly we should apply whatever we need to do to make sure these sorts of people don't develop. We have many social ills in the US which sharply contribute to criminal behaivior. Poverty, hunger, lack of eduacation ... the list goes on and these problems should not be ignored or trivialized.



I made it real clear I was only talking about serial, extremely violent offenders. I made that real clear, but kudo's for ignoring it. Hear, let me try that ...



So you're saying Tookie had rabies and that's why he murdered those people? You're saying if only we had vaccinated John Wayne Gacy after he was caught we could have let him go?

Wow, that's fun ... but I think I'll stick to saying exactely what I mean, as clearly as I can, and avoid twisting other people's posts around.

To answer your first question, yes, I am content to do so. I prefer to think about the health and safety of the whole. Mad killers, both serial and multiple (slight difference there), those people who systimatically and continually brutalize, harm and torture others without remorse or human sympathy should be put to death. Clear as a bell.

And to answer your rant, we should apply ourselves toward social reform and eduacation of our youth to prevent people like Tookie from ever taking that first step into crime. Not waste time of reforming heartless murderers.

You seem to get it that we need social reform and to educate our youth. What you don't seem to get is that we need to study crazy/murderous people to know how to do it in such a way that we don't have more crazy/murderous people. There's no educating our youth if there's no knowledge to teach them. And there's no social reform if we haven't learned a damn thing at all.

Trouble with that is if we hooked all these loons up like lab rats, the same people who say "No!" to the death penalty would say "No!" to treating these people like lab rats with no rights.

And after a few years in some institute they'd then say "Hey! He's been treated for X many years, let him out! He's all reformed and shit! Look, he wrote a kiddie's book!"

NOBODY has said "let him out". They have said, "Don't kill him, he's more useful alive than dead". Which I have been reiterating is very true about many convicts. If you're particularly worried about inmates not wanting to be 'lab rats' you make it voluntary. Nobody ASKED Tookie to speak out against gangs and violence (they DID ask him to implicate others in crimes, but that's another story). So no, don't let people who would otherwise get the death penalty ever be considered for parole, ever. But they certainly have the opportunity to do some good in the world and be useful rather than the system we have now where we waste a lot of time and money killing them.

We'd waste a lot less time and money if we handled it just a ~little~ bit more like the Chinese.

Pop Pop - two in the back of the head and the body goes to the surgeons to harvest organs.

Which goes back to the argument of "what about the people who are innocent?" Sure, China does it quick, but fair? Doubtful.

Sort of not funny.

A death sentence is passed against a woman who was immediately executed with three other people on drugs charges. Picture below.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/world/china/

~Ulrika~

"Verdicts are often decided behind closed doors prior to the trial proceedings- and have even been announced in the media before the trial begins!"

Though I frown about the state of my own country, China never fails to completely anger or disgust me. It's ironic considering they are not even a theist country.

Are you seriously argueing ol' Took was an innocent man? Bundy? Douglas Belt? Mark Glenn Doggett? Abelino Manriquez? There were, and are, monsters. They derserve all the mercy they showed others.

And, were his girls called Tookie Tookie Birds?