Specs have nothing to do with lag!

I'm not sure what part of LL's network hates us all, but I would really like to play this game. I can't , because the FPS have literally been giving me headaches.

I've been seeing some decently powered machines, but I think mine eliminates the client as the problem. Raising the bar for minimum specs probably won't do any good.

My specs:
CPU And MOBO:AMD X2 4400+ Dual Core @ 2x2.2GHZ on ASUS A8N-SLI PREMIUM
RAM:2GB(2x1GB) G.Skill PC4000 @ 200MHZ in Dual Channel
HDD1:WD 7200RPM SATA 320GB Caviar
PSU:ENERMAX 600w w/Dual 12v Rails SLI configured
DVDRW:BenQ Dual Layer 16x DVD Writer/Rewriter
DVDROM: Lite-on 16x DVD ROM
Video Cards: 2x XFX nVidia 7800GTX at stock 450MHZ GPU, 1.2GHZ DDR3 in SLI.
Sound: Onboard 7.1 sound
Case and Cooling: Thermaltake Xaser III 1000A Full Tower (Top USB/Firewire/Audio) 7x 80mm fans (1xtop, 2xside,2xfront,2xrear)
CPU Cooling: Thermaltake Big Typhoon HS/F


Before I cancelled the account, because I don't like paying for really low FPS.....I was getting 5FPS in the area you enter after being a newb, 2FPS at peak time, and 15-25 FPS anywhere else. That's on a rig that does 85FPS on F.E.A.R. with all the settings at Maximum and can run EverQuest 2 with no lag in an open field with EXTREME settings. Tried everything imaginable with network settings, but I show only around 56KBPS being sent to me from SL servers. I'm sending packets over 256KB.....

So what gives? How do we fix this?

Get LL off their butts to improve their client side rendering code. Now before anyone rips my head off screaming at it with stuff like: "Its all network side issues!" or "Its because everything is streaming!" let me say this, if its all network issues and textures are constantly being streamed then why do I have a cache in the first place on my hard drive? Seriously I'd like to know. My cache is set to 1 gig and my bandwith to 900. Now the only time my bandwith ever spikes to max is when I first enter the sim and my client is downloading all the textures and such wich quickly dies down to like 20 - 35kbps. So yes I know the client is always streaming data, thats obvious. So why is it after I've been standing in the same spot for over 15mins with little change in the area with exception of the occasional AV walking by does my local frame rate not incease at all? Actually, now that I think about it since the 1.7 upgrade I've never gone beyond a frame rate of 10fps with the occasional spike of 15fps (in 1.6.x I hand really good frame rates of 20 - 30fps depending on my location) and my specs are far lower than Corvus's.

AMD Anthlon XP 2600+ (1.9ghz)
1 gig DDR266 RAM (PC2100)
GeForceFX 5500 256mb AGP (stock clock speed)

All my wires are tied and tucked away from the CPU and videocard plus I have like 5 hi output fans running in my case so don't give me the heat issue answer. My opinion is its the client's rendering capabilities that need upgrading. I honestly would like to know when the last time there was a client side rendering upgrade and wich OpenGL API its currently based apon. Next time there's one of those meetings I'm gonna try to attend and bring this issue up.

I've been back-and-forthing with support. As part of that, I sent a suggestion.

Commonly, on OCForums, you'll find folding teams. They join folding teams that are essentially making calculations in order to expediate the cure for many diseases, including cancer. After downloading the software, the folding network uses the SYSTEM IDLE PROCESS (read, unused CPU cycles) to use the person's processor to contribute to the cause. This does not in any way interfere with normal operation.

The corporations involved in Folding teams do this because it takes tremendous processor time off of their equipment, resulting in vastly increased work/hour and lessening network lag.

Why can't LL pass the LL script into our system idle processes, not harming us at all but actually resulting in an unusual phenomena: the more people that are logged in, and the more powerful their systems, the LESS LAG IS EXPERIENCED ACROSS THE NETWORK.

For people with dual cores, since SL is single-threaded, this is significant. People could actually trade off processing time for benefits (similar to how LL sells us processing time on their servers for sims) that are in-game, costing SL nothing. Just pass all scripting calls through the system idle process, which for one core can be 100% if affinity for SL and Windows is set to one core.

If you had 300 servers at LL, for instance, and you could pass off 1% of the computing required to the system idle process (generous), and you had 400 accounts logged in, THE SERVERS WOULD BE PROCESSING PHYSICS, NETWORKING, OS, AND RENDERING ONLY. A more realistic share, as most do not have dual cores or dually setups, would be .25% per user. That would still be passing off 33.33% of script load.

Tossing dual cores in the mix from those of us who have them, I bet you could cut network demand by a full third once all forms of process are calculated in instead of just the scripting.

Yes I've seen those things and have used them (Distributed.net and SETI@Home). Problem being is network side lag DOES NOT effect local frame rates (at least from my observations). I could be on a sim with a low time dialation and still be running at the 10 fps locally that I had before the lag spike. Prime place I've found is Moonshine's Casino. Great place, plenty of content, and of course.. during their Free Slots events a great source of lag (note, I'm not bashing Moonshine's just stating the obvios before some rules nazi shoves the TOS in my face). Now during one of these events I walk in and of course the lag hits me and my fps drops from all the AVs present in my view, but as soon as I sit down in front of a slot zoomed in my local frame rate goes back up. Not uncommon for many people. While playing of course the sim is lagged like all hell with the script executions being processed by the sim, BUT my local frame rate remains unchanged. Still running at a strong 10 - 15 fps. Now all those textures are of course loaded up in my cache so there's not issues there, majority of the avatar cloathing and stuff like that is of course loaded up into my cache. So when I rotate my camera around of course my frame rates drop because of all the objects being rendered. Why is this happening? The rendering engine can't keep up. Granted there is alot of stuff being rendered... but ya know what? Games like Half-life2 and Doom3 render just as much sometimes more. So once again my finger points in the direction of SL's rendering engine. For the current amount of content and the kind of content people are able to create now the current engine imho is inadiquite and needs improvement or replacement.

Have you tried setting affinity with that duel core because if you don't you are going to get the exact problems you are describing. SL isn't quite right for duel core processors yet and it is not surprising since so few players use them. If it is an AMD duel core, you need to get the latest AMD CPU driver from the AMD website as there is a problem with the current distributed drivers and most all games. To set affinity, open the task manager (control+alt+delete) and go to "processes" , right click on "Secondlife.exe" and click "set affinity". you will need to choose a processor so uncheck either the 0 or the 1. I know because I had this exact problem with my duel core AMD and it took the Lindens pointing out websites showing others having widespread problems with the duel cores. Once I got my house in order, SL has run the best it ever has for me.

http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors...1_13118,00.html

/111/d6/67738/1.html

I would keep an eye on the AMD website for patches. Apparently other
games have similar problems on the AMD dual core.

http://forums.amd.com/lofiversion/index.php/t54395.html
http://forums.amd.com/index.php?showtopic=53288&st=0

Note: Nvidia put up new drivers as of Oct 25 that addresses the affinity problem.

The only one who screams that now is LL because it is easier than admittting that they don't know how the code works or how to improve it and it is much simpler to say things like "must be your ISP" or "SL is wholly unlike any game ever before envisioned by humankind".

But this horse has been way beaten to death already. Spare LL your data and hypotheses, they already "know" you are wrong. Better still, the CEO was seen on the forums today asking customers to help make a design decision about cursor tool tips which has led a number of customers to believe that it represents a serious deficit in understanding as great as checking the toenails of a patient with massive head trauma. For both the head trauma and SL, the prognosis is not good at present.

Oh well.

Just gotta ask the obvious.... Corvus, is local lighting turned on? Its buggy as hell and will thrash your framerates even with killer specs like yours.

Indeed, the patch tomorrow is supposed to address the Local Lighting issue.

Huh. That's odd. I just got through reading this post that was made about seven hours before yours:



From here.

Yes thats because its so obvious that they can't deny it when it comes to texture loading lag spikes. However this still doesn't affect local framerates after textures have been downloaded and loaded up for local rendering. The common answer I have gotten whenever I brought up the issue of the local rendering engine is "SL is unlike any game and is extremely graphics intensive." If its so graphics intensive that it runs slow as sh!t with all specialty options disabled don't you think something needs tweaking?

ALL specialty options?

I run a slow ass piece of shit machine and I get between 15 and 20 FPS pretty much everywhere but Casinos and Particle-disaster-zones. (Poof merchants in particular.)

I have everything running BUT Local Lighting.

If you say you have them all off, but you mean you have them all off except local lighting "because that's standard everywhere else, why not here?", you may want to reassess.

If you really have everything off and are still lagging on the clientside, I don't know what else to say. I have a low end machine (heck I only have 512Meg of RAM and an AMD CPU with ~1.1GHz....and an ATI card to boot!) and I do not hav ethe problems that a lot of people are describing... Heck! If I stay in Cass (Where I am perfectly happy anyway...) I never even SEE a drop in framerate. I run at about 20 fps there.

Well, you seem to have caught me in quite the contradiction there; how stupid of me. Aim high, LL! Of course, we'll all be understanding when today's 1.7.2 "needs a few days/weeks to stabilze" and won't be disappointed when you haven't gotten "back to at least 1.6 performance", nor was 1.6 a bit of a dog compared to its predecessors.

Ammended: Not only can they not predict how long it will take to upgrade but they don't even know if they've even fixed the problem:Do you wish to reassert that they have any idea what they are doing? And no, them saying "trust us" doesn't count.

I have just read some of these post. I have been experiencing severe lag across the grid. There are a few places where it is better than others. I am using the following system.

Dell Dimension 8400
1 GB DDR2 SDRAM @ 533 mhz
256 MB Nvidia GeForce 6800 GTO Graphics Card
250 GB Harddrive

Connection: High Speed DSL at 1.6 up and down

What is the best setting in the sl preferences I should be using to get the best results frame rate and otherwise.

If this forum is the wrong place for the answer I have establish a special Sl gmail email address for a response.

[email]georgeflan@gmail.com[/email]

Thanks for all your help in advance.

George

I had to set affinity to one core just to get SL to run.

I was using local lighting, however. From the sound of it, though, I'd still be below 30FPS, which is unacceptable in this day and age, regardless of the way the system is programmed. When 20fps is 'Good', there's something wrong.


Edit: LL, SHOW US YOUR RENDERING CODE, or at least what framework you're using! Maybe your community can help fix the problem!

Given the professionalism demonstrated, you should consider it fortunate that they can even find their code.

That code probably won't see the outside of LL until they are liquidated. From a prior time when LL was slightly more open, there isn't much of a framework above raw OpenGL for the main rendering which is why you can't really even form a reasonable speculation about what it is doing. As an example, if SL needs to render a cube (three of which sides your viewer couldn't possibly see at any one time) SL will send 12 tris down to your GPU (2 per face) and let the GPU figure which to hide. Thus, on average, SL is making your GPU do twice as much work as it might otherwise have to do.

This was certainly a quick (maybe even defensible) approach for beta: get the code out fast, don't compute what the hardware can do for you, etc. It does not, unfortunately, become production code by wishing and the scalability was effectively designed out. Oh well.

George,

You are running at or below the minspec for this software.

Get a new machine.

>I< need a new machine, or at the very least more memory...

Save up, reallocate resources, whatever... but get a new machine.

His setup looks OK to me, but then again I don't know what processor is in that tower...

It's a 3.6GHz P4, from what a quick search turned up. If that's at or below the minspec, then something is seriously messed up somewhere.

Especialy considering that I run the game just fine on a Ath64 2800+, 768MB RAM Ge2Ti with 64MB VRAM. Sure I don't have little toys like shiny and local lighting, but the only time I hit lag is in crowded areas, where everyone else has the same problem too.

If I spend the 10$ to reactivate and enable local, should I expect decent framerates under normal circumstances?

This Dell is a 3.4 ghz P4 and your telling me I am at minspec?

This is from the home page of Second Life:

System Requirements


PC/Windows:

Computer: Pentium III 800MHZ or higher, with 256MB RAM or more
Operating System: OS: Windows XP (sp2) / 2000 (sp4)
Video Card: nVidia Geforce 2 (32MB RAM) or higher, or ATI Radeon 8500 (32MB RAM) or higher
Internet Connection: DSL, cable modem or LAN (256kbps downstream or higher)

According to the specs of my Dell which I just purchased in February 2005 I am more than above the minimum specs....something is very wrong somewhere.......

Your specs are just fine, George. I think it may have been a misread of your original post - possibly thinking that your 533MHz GPU was actually your CPU.


Generally speaking - examples things that will reduce your framerate are:

-Local Lighting On
-Longer Draw Distances
-Particles
-Avatar/Tree/Landcape detail rendering

Setting the above settings Off, or at their lowest possible setting will help get you the maximum framerate for your machine. However, on a machine like yours, you shouldn't have to take these setting to their lowest.

I'd play around with the above, and find the best compromise between Frame Rate & Image quality.

Personally, I'm on a machine much lower-spec than you are (Athlon 2600+, 1.5GB DDR, nVidia 5600 256 AGP), and my framerates are around 15 FPS usually.

I set:

Local Lighting = Off
Draw Distance = 64m
Max Particle Count = 0
Avatar/Tree/Landscape rendering in the middle of the slider.


Hope this helps!

When I say I have them ALL off I mean ALL of them. No Local Lighting, No Shinies, No Shadows, etc. My draw is set to 64 and particles are cut in half to 2048. I have a 1.9ghz AMD CPU (single core, 32bit), 1 gig of RAM, and a GeForceFX 5500 256MB 8X AGP graphics card. My results? No different from when I used my GeForc4 Ti4200 128MB AGP. I'm not using a cookie cutter pc either, I put this thing together myself from parts online and at computer shows. I tried using Local Lighting once to see how it looks, the performance hit was so severe that I turned it off (cut my fps down by half and the moment people come into view it drops like a rock in a lake and this was back in 1.6, didn't bother in 1.7 after hearing the horror stories). I haven't gotten out of work yet to try 1.7.2(4) so I dunno how bad it'll hit me now till I get home and take a look.

Travis,

You are correct, I misread his specs... Thanks for clearing that up.

Note to self: Read the specs more closely. Drink fewer caffeinated beverages. Get more sleep. Read the specs more closely.

LOL yes, and so did Travis. 533MHZ isn't his GPU speed either, that's the same speed as an overclocked 7800GTX OC. It's his FSB speed.